HELP!! F**KED my LC4 cam

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Dotbond, Nov 19, 2007.

  1. braaap!

    braaap! Long timer Supporter

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    not me! I put fuel in and tjust wist the throttle making stupid noises :D

    seems like the motor could use better oil feed up there though....

    I was amazed... as the bike got real hard to start in Esperance... would fire tickling the deco...

    ran all the way back across the nullabor at 120+ kms.. back to Clare in SA. Van'd it home and checked the valve lash :eek1 WTF

    I hope the 09' 690A doesn't have the same probs! :wink:

    cheers!
    #41
  2. Tseta

    Tseta Lost

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    This is an old thread, I know. I am bumping it to the top as it seems to be “the go-to thread” about camshafts, cam roller bearings and camshaft bearings, indexed in the mighty LC4-thread.

    I wish to share the results of some research into aftermarket sources of the cam area bearings. KTM lists the various bearings as follows:

    58036061090 ROCKER ARM ROLLER CPL. INTAKE
    58336061090 ROCKER ARM ROLLER CPL. EXHAUST
    0625060040 GROOVED BALL BEARING TMB004
    58036097000 NEEDLE BEARING BK 2012

    Now, it has been speculated that there doesn’t exist any aftermarket source for the rocker arm rollers. According to my research, this truly and unfortunately seems to be the case.

    A needle bearing, BK2012, is a fairly common one and should be readily available. Even more common would be a HK2012 needle bearing (easily available through many industrial suppliers). HK series bearings are with both ends open, BK series bearings have one blind end. These two are basically considered interchangeable, as the dimensions (except mass, of course), limiting speeds, load factors etc. are identical for both types of bearings.

    Some sources:
    BK2012, with a blind end
    &
    HK2012, with an open end.

    For full disclosure’s sake, it was Jarno’s (Seikkailu_R) view that the camshaft may have some more axial play (possibly leading to some steel/aluminum contact) with the open, HK-series bearing. The blind end of the BK-series bearing may also protect it better from excess sealant squeezeout when assembling the cylinder head top section.

    The grooved ball bearing TMB004 is an interesting anomaly. KTM’s part number nomenclature/logic gives us some more information: most ball bearings have a part number starting with 06250, followed by a 4 or 5-number standard bearing code. Take the front wheel bearings of my LC4 Adv, for example: 0625069068 GR.BALL BEAR.6906 DDU2CG23S6NM. The KTM part number contains the 6906-part as the standard bearing code. Keeping this in mind, it would seem that the TMB004 is actually a 6004 deep groove ball bearing. This would seem to hold true based on the bearing measurements of a removed TMB004 compared to a new 6004. The removed TMB-unit even uses the same plastic/rubber seals as the 6004, even with the same markings. Interestingly, though, the TMB is explicitly marked on the outer race as a TMB004 bearing. So this led me to research it further.

    It seems that TMB is NTN (a bearing manufacturer) nomenclature for a special bearing. Read more about it here. These types of bearings seem to be designed with demanding use in mind: long service life even with contaminated lubrication, optimized heat treatment for improved cracking resistance etc.

    It also seems that these TMB-bearings are OEM application only. The local NTN supplier was aware of the existence of these types of bearings, but informed me that “it is not possible to order replacement bearings with the TMB-code through NTN.” It was the NTN-bearing technician’s view, though, that in this application, a regular 6004 bearing with C3 (greater than normal) internal clearance would be adequate. It does seem plausible, as KTM uses similar 6004 bearings with C3 or even larger C4 clearance in numerous applications (mainly transmission and camshaft bearings):

    0625060041 BALL BEARING 6004 TN9
    0625060042 BALL BEARING 6004 TN9 C4
    0625060043 BALL BEARING 6004 NR C3 ´05
    0625160040 GROOVED BALL BEAR. TM 16004 C3
    0625204213 BALL BEARING 6004 C4 N


    As the bearing turns…

    -Tseta
    #42
    twqqis likes this.
  3. windaddiction

    windaddiction Ditch Finder

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    Thanks for the info.... lol had the same problem.... just waiting for parts. My exhaust one went *sigh

    Attached Files:

    • cam.jpg
      cam.jpg
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    #43
  4. clintnz

    clintnz Trans-Global Chook Chaser

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    IIRC when I 1st did the cam bearings at 50K km, we took out the original BK & the replacement genuine KTM part supplied by the dealer was an HK.

    Interesting about the other cam bearing, I got the genuine part at 50K, for the 95K rebuild I just got one from SKF. Will monitor & report back with wear analysis at 135K :D

    Cheers
    Clint
    #44
  5. DaBit

    DaBit Been here awhile

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    I found that out myself already. But let's face it: that bearing doesn't need to be replaced often. And KTM-labeled bearings are not that much more expensive than similar quality generic ones.

    Being able to buy the required bearings and seals at the local shop is nice, especially for the wheel/linkage parts. But once you want/need to replace the camshaft bearings you probably need to order some other KTM parts anyway.

    Offtopic: I also wondered why this bearing is a double side sealed type? Plenty of oil makes it to the bearing location, so I'd say use that oil....

    In my book that's called 'not plausible' since even for an OEM it's easier and cheaper to use a standard bearing than a custom one. So there must be a good reason for that TMB004 specialty thingie.

    BTW: when I replaced the camshaft-end needle bearing, I got the blind-end version from KTM.
    #45
  6. windaddiction

    windaddiction Ditch Finder

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    Well as many people have guessed here is the roller..... the only thing the new center part was not a tight fit?? is this normal?

    Attached Files:

    #46
  7. Dotbond

    Dotbond Africa, Africa

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    Correct, the new centre part slides in nice and easy, ain't a tight fit.
    #47
  8. windaddiction

    windaddiction Ditch Finder

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    how do you keep it from vibrating out?
    #48
  9. theGrinch

    theGrinch SNF Dream Riders

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    Look a couple of pages back :norton
    #49
  10. clintnz

    clintnz Trans-Global Chook Chaser

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    The original sealed bearing lasted 50K km no problem. I took out the seals on the new bearing I installed at 50K km. It was still in perfect shape 45K km later. I took the seals out of the next bearing too.

    BUT... now, thinking about this, & looking at the head design, taking the seals out of that bearing may mean that the oil level in the well under the cam could run a little lower as oil will be able to drain out through the bearing.

    [​IMG]

    I think there is a lot of oil thrown up into the head normally so it might make no difference, but maybe just taking out the inner seal would be best?

    Cheers
    Clint
    #50
  11. Zecatfish

    Zecatfish XTique Rider

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    I would bet anyone needing a new cam could have webcam weld and regrind their worn one for better performance too.
    #51
  12. makazica

    makazica Been here awhile

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    Clint, interesting point there! When I did my base gasket I changed both bearings on the cam and talked to a local KTM mechanic about taking the seals out. He reccommended not to because as he sad, the seals protect the bearing from metal shavings and make it last longer.

    We all know that a good LC4 can have quite a lot of shavings on the drain bolt magnet and this makes sense so I opted not to take the seals out.

    Also knowing that the cam rollers are next to the bearing and with their reputation and known service/change interval I'm kind of thinking it might be better to let the seals be......

    Just my 2'c.

    M.
    #52
  13. Aqueous

    Aqueous n00b

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    I've replaced the cam follower bearings three times in the last 30t kilometers. On the third replacement, and just around 300 kilometers after, the intake rocker arm and the camshaft broke.. The needle bearings scattered inside.. Good thing the needle bearings didn't break the timing chain or gear..
    Now my problem is always the intake bearings.. Can anyone give an insight on why this happens... I change oil and filters religiously. And i just follow the valve clearance of .015mm of the manual.. Could a wrong valve clearance adjustment cause this...

    Waiting for parts......

    Thanks

    Attached Files:

    #53
  14. laramie LC4

    laramie LC4 flying something...

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    another option is to add another oil line to the top of the engine like the RFS's have. if you look at the top of your rocker cover there is a spot for just such an addition, they just never used it. you can drill, then tap, and add a "jet screw" banjo bolt and now you have plenty of oil. if you decide not to use it, no problem, just cap the hole with an M10 bolt. no harm no foul. i'm currently having this done to my engine as we speak and will hopefully have some more info about the whole process soon (assuming i ever get my engine back.....)

    my cam is having that done as we speak as well. my builder used the OEM cam, added a bunch of very hard metal (sorry forgot what kind) and then grinds it down to his new specs. he swears that the cam in his 613 RFS has been ripped on for a long time and still looks like it's brand new. he swears i will never need to buy another cam again. it's such an aggressive cam that i will probably end up ruining everything else around it first....:eek1

    laramie :beer
    #54
  15. clintnz

    clintnz Trans-Global Chook Chaser

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    If you are actually setting them to 0.015 mm that could be part of the problem, the spec is 0.15 mm. Otherwise that is really strange, maybe a sticky bent valve or something?? If you are waiting on parts anyway I would pull the head & inspect the valves.

    Cheers
    Clint
    #55
  16. wrk2surf

    wrk2surf on the gas or brakes

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  17. gunnerbuck

    gunnerbuck Island Hopper

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    Aqueous, It is possible that the roller pin had slid out and hung up to cause this breakage of your roller carriage... What are you using to flare the shaft ends to hold them from sliding out? Is there any hits/ dings on the cover/head to indicate if the pin did indeed come loose?



    f
    #57
  18. Alik

    Alik viertaKTMotor *****

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    Hallo Laramie,

    could You elaborate a little more - where is that space located?

    [​IMG]

    Do You mind that spot in the middle near ((3))?
    Have You got Your engine back yet? I didn’t find out by reading the latest posts.
    #58
  19. 5ambamboo

    5ambamboo n00b

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    Hi there guys, apologies for being unsociable and putting my first post in here without saying hi but this flippin KTbooM has got me in a very unsociable mood :cry.

    I've been lurking on here for ages and frequently use the LC4 Index as a source of knowledge, but I'm now completely stumped: I came here via the LC4 clutch noise thread http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118095&page=5, because as my friend put it 'If I didn't know better I'd say your barrel was full of sand!?'

    Basically the noise is getting bad; much worse than when I got the bike (03 640 adv) 2 years and 8000 miles ago. You now have to shout when you're stood next to the bike to be heard over the idle noise.

    I have read this thread, checked my cam and found it grooved by approx 0.1mm. The roller seemed fine though; it slides sideways along the shaft a little, and may have a minute amount of radial play, (but my sausage fingers aren't quite delicate enough to tell whether it does, or whether its all in my imagination) but rotated nice and smoothly when I tried it.

    So, can the damage to my cam just have been caused by poor adjustment as I assumed? or is the bearing definitely not right and possibly the cause of the 'sand in my barrel' noise?

    [​IMG]

    Please help. I want to go do some more adventuring but daren't take my bike past the end of the street like this.
    #59
  20. Alik

    Alik viertaKTMotor *****

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    Check the bearings - how to they move, how to they feel. If they are shot you can feel it. There is some sort of roughness and it definitely feels not all right.
    #60