Help me achieve perfection - WR450 twin Adv conversion

Discussion in 'Some Assembly Required' started by MotoPolo, Apr 22, 2016.

  1. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2015
    Oddometer:
    753
    Location:
    Portland OR
    Plumer and Thunder - you guys are hired as my lost wheelie detectives - you are really digging into this - thanks.

    So yes I closed the clutch switch permanently by connecting the two wire going to the clutch switch. My shop manual says nothing about the clutch switch affecting the ECU map, just when the starter will engage ( when clutch is in if in gear and kick stand up (always up as I by passed that also)). I'll try opening that circuit, but I am sceptical that the ECU map will change - only because it seams the full service manual would list that as a possible fault for poor performance. Now we need to know why the B/Y informs the ECU....I think it is just a safety feature - but we will find out.

    But keep feeding me ideas - I have a list from OHJim I working on.

    Yes it does - As a last resort I supposed I could go to them kicking and screaming - I'm a man I don't need no help - NOT just a man - an Engineer!
  2. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2015
    Oddometer:
    753
    Location:
    Portland OR
    I tried to get the guy to just give me the sticker - but of course that didn't work. It will have to come off for plating. He did say I can get another one if it is damaged. I was so thrilled to get out of there with so little effort I didn't care at that point.
    OHjim likes this.
  3. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2015
    Oddometer:
    753
    Location:
    Portland OR
    Plumer - The Neutral Light always on is a mystery to me. As your diagram shows - when in Neutral the gear selector switch provides the ground connection for the neutral LED indicator. When not in neutral, there should be no ground connection. I'll pull the meter connector and see if I am getting a ground on the neutral wire while in gear. Maybe I have a short to ground. While there I'll check for ground in each gear
  4. plumer1kt

    plumer1kt Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2015
    Oddometer:
    1,161
    Location:
    Hellas
    Your shop manual will never inform you for things like this.
    Anybody remember the VOLKSWAGEN scandal?
    As for the mapping the ignition advance will change with AFR move to λ=1 .And that is not a fault!
    Is the B/R wire that protect you from starting the bike with gear and on side stand.NOT the B/Y.
    But by closing the switch you are providing ground to both B/R B/Y wires.
    We already have a statement for the clutch switch and 690's.
    Not if you have a shorted diode and the clutch switch provides ground all the time!!!Ground will keep feeding the dashboard neutral indicator and that conflict may be the cause gear indicator isn't working. And if so B/Y wire will have ground permanent even if you open the clutch switch.
    You can check if the LB/W has ground while the LB has not when not in neutral.
    Or if the gear selector is shorted then B/Y wire will still have ground as you can see in my first drawing.
    Every possible fault on your bike lead us to that B/Y wire
    Just cut the B/Y wire,open the clutch switch and go for a ride around the block.
    You only need 10 meters..... to wheelie...
    JagLite, MotoPolo and 79thunder like this.
  5. Roofchop

    Roofchop Hands up mother stickers, this is a f**k up!

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2016
    Oddometer:
    432
    Location:
    Carool, NSW
    "Yes it does - As a last resort I supposed I could go to them kicking and screaming - I'm a man I don't need no help - NOT just a man - an Engineer!"

    I'm with you.... I rebuilt a wrecked Ducati 1098, couldn't clear dash errors, not starting...

    Eventually at the dealer with his $5k + computer plugged in he said must be bad ECU...Swapped one in no change, he said loom is stuffed, I said no way (I knew it inside out, no damage...) He said try another ECU, as I was fitting it he said where is the ground for the ECU?
    I said what ground, it was like a 64 pin plug, why the f**k does it need a ground...... He hooked a jumper from the heat sink of the ECU to the engine, cleared the errors and fired it right up....:dunno
    JagLite and MotoPolo like this.
  6. 79thunder

    79thunder Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2017
    Oddometer:
    263
    Location:
    Out West
    I think the reason that the service manual would not mention it as a possible cause for poor performance is quite simple.
    The manual is likely running through the most logical scenarios. (fuel pressure, weak spark, compression, etc)


    During normal operation of an...unaltered bike it would be very, very unlikely to accidentally close a normally open circuit.

    (a rock or sharp object would have to strip the insulation off of the correct 2 wires and the bare wires would have to touch!)

    Or...the bike owner was in there with a pair of wire strippers.

    Either scenario is not something the factory service manual is going assume.



    I think it also goes without saying, that it (the manual) will also assume that the factory exhaust system, emissions equipment, air box, etc. is also intact and unaltered.

    You have to think a little "out of the box" here. The service manual won't do that.


    Oh.. one more thing, you'll never need a dealer.
    You've got ADVrider !!!


    I can't possibly imagine building an entire bike and then having to do the walk of shame into the local dealership!!:lol2

    .
  7. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2015
    Oddometer:
    753
    Location:
    Portland OR
    That just isn’t fair is it!
    JagLite and Roofchop like this.
  8. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2015
    Oddometer:
    753
    Location:
    Portland OR
    I like the way you think
  9. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2015
    Oddometer:
    753
    Location:
    Portland OR
    Some mysterious sh*t going on in the electronics. I did the following checks:

    1. pulled the clutch SW wire pin from the connector (open circuit). Engine would not fire in neutral (would turn over). Error code SD-19 -"Sidestand Switch: a break or disconnect in the lack/red lead to the ECU is detected"

    So this simulates clutch engaged and side stand up. In stock mode the engine should fire if in Neutral.

    2. Measured the resistance to ground for each gear selector switch at the meter connector. Gear 1-6 when selected, all less than 1 Ohm except 4th gear = 98 ohms. when not selected all read open circuit. Neutral when selected = 2 M Ohm, when not selected = 5 M Ohm.

    Does this indicate a bad diode? Maybe the ECU doesn't recognize neutral and is giving the error code?

    I'll look for and replace diode.

    I'm thinking that if I did not bypass clutch to begin with I still would not have had this engine running - Strange things.
  10. plumer1kt

    plumer1kt Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2015
    Oddometer:
    1,161
    Location:
    Hellas
    The ECU signal for neutral is the same with the clutch .The B/R wire
    As i wrote previous, in neutral ground goes to the B/R through diodes=bike start.If something goes wrong in neutral and cannot provide ground to the B/R wire the bike things is in gear.
    When in gear the B/R wire takes ground when side stand closed circuit + clutch switch closed circuit.
    Don't measure ohm, measure voltage.A test light will help you
    or do it with the multimeter.
    Check using one probe to battery +12v and the other to the wires you test.
    Do that for every state the three switches can be ,neutral,clutch ,side stand.
    Measure the LB , LB/W , B/R , B/Y on the switches and on the relay box.
    Then we can follow the results to find the fault.
    As an example:IF neutral selected-side stand open-clutch open the LB and the B/R must have ground measured at the relay box socket.IF NOT on the B/R and YES on the LB = faulty diode.IF NOT on LB check the gear sensor.
    Now tell me , with the clutch-open does your neutral indicator light up (LB/W) when NOT in neutral any more?
    If not,again faulty diode .Why?Because when clutch-close (as you were bridged) ground pass through faulty diode on the LB and LB/W .Normally only the B/R -B/Y should have ground.
  11. Roofchop

    Roofchop Hands up mother stickers, this is a f**k up!

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2016
    Oddometer:
    432
    Location:
    Carool, NSW
    Just for a quick test (even though you already checked everything x10) wire the clutch and stand switches back to stock factory standard.

    Could be some weirdness going on....

    I usually always delete them on custom builds (less wires=better), but on older bikes non EFI/ECU....

    Test/replace the relay unit with diodes...
    MotoPolo likes this.
  12. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2015
    Oddometer:
    753
    Location:
    Portland OR
    Plumer - you are being very patient - thanks for the help.
    "Now tell me , with the clutch-open does your neutral indicator light up (LB/W) when NOT in neutral any more?" - Yes neutral light is on all the time - regardless of gear selected.
    So your suggestion is to measure the voltage drop along the path for all possible switch states - I'll give it a try.
    climberevan likes this.
  13. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2015
    Oddometer:
    753
    Location:
    Portland OR
    Well I think I found 90% of the problem - removed airbox and installed original intake runners - made quite a difference. Especially as the RPM built up. She's a pretty exciting ride now when you crack the throttle open. This is closer to what I anticipated the power should feel like. The other 10% is probably in the exhaust. My planned fix is to shorten the runners inside the airbox to allow cleaner flow into runners - I'll try removing 6mm at a wack until I don't feel any difference and then compare again to stock.
    JagLite likes this.
  14. plumer1kt

    plumer1kt Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2015
    Oddometer:
    1,161
    Location:
    Hellas
    With the clutch switch open?
    Not voltage drop,Presence of voltage -12v.
    It's what an electrician would do on your bike to find the fault.
    .
    And cut that B/Y wire or fix the problem.We need your ignition to advance at low rpm's from 1/8 to 1/2 throttle position.That's the main reason for a TPS .Sends info about throttle opening to ECU to control the mapping of ignition advance
    As an example...
    [​IMG]
    This will not only affect your low end power output and half throttle response, but will lower dramatically your fuel consumption at low rpm cruising and slow riding along a trail.
    .
    Once i build a duke 640 with Van Den Bosch cam,full akrapovic titanium exhaust ,oversized piston FCR-MX and many "other" mods.The bike did 66 RWHP ,similar to the 690's.That bike was able to lift the front wheel with half throttle/second gear .
    Assuming in this video the bikes are not extremely modified and you have a similar output with 690 or my x-duke i would expect an easy first gear wheelie from your lowered gear bike .

    At 1,25 wheelie with third gear and fourth gear (clutch assisted and pulling)

    Speedometer reading is fake.He has a lower gear like you and the speedo lies like yours.Anyway wheelies are true
    79thunder likes this.
  15. plumer1kt

    plumer1kt Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2015
    Oddometer:
    1,161
    Location:
    Hellas
    Exactly!!!
    +1 from me
  16. shinyribs

    shinyribs doesn't care

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2011
    Oddometer:
    3,623
    Location:
    The South
    I thought you had used the stock intake runners inside your airbox. Yeah, these motors do seem quite sensitive to runner length. Even the most highly praised aftermarket "air box" for these bikes uses the long, stock intake runners. I don't know if clean airflow around the runners would be as important as runner length. If you saw the stuff I store around my air box you'd wonder how the bike runs at all, but she rips like new.

    The 07 is my first FI bike, and I'm not tech savvy, so I learn as I go. On the topic of exhaust I have an Arrow system and a stock ECU. Bike runs great and plugs look good. If I pull the baffle out the bike is insanely loud, but doesn't seem to hurt performance or mpg at all. If I ride with the baffle out the bike seems to be a tad rich for a bit when I reinstall the baffle. It'll smell a tad rich at idle not feel as clean when ripping through the rpms in the lower gears. After a few hours the bike seems to adjust and things go back to normal. Again, I'm not tech savvy, but the ECU seems to do a good job of self tuning for small changes, if that makes sense.

    Was thinking about this thread yesterday so made note of my rpm and mpg for your comparison. At 65mph I'm seeing 4500 rpm and the instant mpg on the gauge is reading 50-52 mpg. If I drop down to 55mph the mpg goes up to 58-60mpg. I have a speedo healer to make my speedo read gps true and my old school mpg calculations always my onboard mpg claims now.
    MotoPolo likes this.
  17. 79thunder

    79thunder Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2017
    Oddometer:
    263
    Location:
    Out West
    Nice to hear that you made some improvements via the intake runners.

    re: shortening the intake runners in the airbox.
    I'd have to see inside the airbox to know for sure, but generally--> long runners=good.
    Unless there is something impeding airflow at that length?


    However, I do think you're chasing your tail a little bit.

    You're not allowed to move on to the airbox until you fix the neutral circuit and open the clutch switch !!!



    To fix the neutral concern, you need continuity to ground when the gear position switch is in neutral.(period)

    I don't see it in the diagram, but you can test the ntrl switch. for continuity when in neutral.

    Do not pass go until there is continuity in that circuit and continuity to ground on the LB wire coming out of the relay unit going to the ECU.

    ( there is an open in that circuit, either a faulty neutral switch, open wire or a bad diode. I have never actually seen a diode fail.
    You can test the diode, if your multimeter has a diode test function, make sure the test leads are on correctly.
    I think it would be more likely that the diode would be missing, loose or installed backwards as opposed to having failed internally)

    As Plumer suggested, a test light will also test the diode.
    Connect one end to the positive side of the battery (+12v) and the other end to the LB wire after the relay box.
    (you're testing the ground side of the circuit)

    Do not pass go until that light .... lights up!



    Once that ground circuit has been repaired, your gear indicator will read correctly and the bike will start in neutral.

    Then, you can remove the clutch switch input from the ECU connector.

    At that time the ECU will finally be out of its "I'm in neutral or the clutch is pulled in" eco/lean fuel map and ignition strategy.


    Once those two things are accomplished, then you can play with the air intake!!

    (but it's your bike, play with whatever part you like. LOL!!)


    .
  18. plumer1kt

    plumer1kt Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2015
    Oddometer:
    1,161
    Location:
    Hellas
    LB wire is coming from neutral switch. LB/W goes to neutral light indicator.
    My suggestion is not for the diodes.It/s for testing the paths and what work when....
    I gave an example above.Then i can tell if the fault is on some diode or anywhere else.
    But i'm sure that if he does the check he will find the fault alone!
    A diode can be checked with a multimeter (570 OHM reading is good) as you suggest but outside the loom.Means that test can be affected by the other diodes and/or a possible ground loop on the tested diode through the wires.
    And if that relay box can be opened and fixed.I have seen printed circuits on such type of relay units.
    As for failed diodes I have seen many .Most of them are shorted from over voltage spikes.
    A shorted diode will let current flow in both directions.
    .
    I like the "You're not allowed...." !:lol3
    "simpler solutions are more likely to be correct than complex ones"
    occam's razor​
  19. 79thunder

    79thunder Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2017
    Oddometer:
    263
    Location:
    Out West
    Sorry Plumer, My fault for not seeing the notes on the wiring diagram you posted as per the neutral switch.
    I was using this diagram--> https://d32ptomnhiuevv.cloudfront.n.../files/product_jackets/Haynes-6385-page-5.jpg

    So I could expand it and read it (might be time for reading glasses?) as well see the direction of the diodes. I was having trouble seeing it on yours. I also like the colors!


    Bottom line... get continuity to ground on the LB circuit first.
    I don't think that's happening.

    If it is good, then we can test for continuity to ground at the LB/W and then test the diodes.


    Which is what your (Plumer's) yes/no checks were testing.
    (I understand what you are trying to do)

    I think we just need to check/test one thing at a time.
    (And get a definitive answer. ei: yes or no, 0hms or open circuit)



    .
    MotoPolo and plumer1kt like this.
  20. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2015
    Oddometer:
    753
    Location:
    Portland OR
    OK Team - here is the wiring diagram for my bike - let's use this for reference.

    FZ 07 2015 wiring diagram.jpg

    Here is what we know so far:
    Nominal Condition (as I built it): Clutch SW (61) is closed (engaged), Side Stand SW (22) is closed (side stand Up). Engine will start in neutral and in any gear if clutch is engaged
    Test Condition 1: Clutch SW (61) is open: Engine will turn over but will not fire - error code 19 - " a break or disconnection of the red/black lead of the ECU is detected"

    That tells me that I need to check and make sure SW 22 is really closed - I pulled the connector (20) at the fuel pump relay unit and checked the blu wire continuity to ground - 0.4 Ohms - check

    So now lets go to Thunders "not allowed" - The light blue (LB) wire from the gear selector SW is the Neutral wire. When in Neutral I measure 0.7 Ohms to ground at the relay connector on the LB wire. When in any other gear I measure open to ground on the LB wire.

    OK let's keep digging


    "Now tell me , with the clutch-open does your neutral indicator light up (LB/W) when NOT in neutral any more?" - Yes neutral light is on all the time - regardless of gear selected.
    With the clutch switch open? - YES with clutch sw open neutral light is always on. It is also always on with clutch SW closed

    So now that we know the neutral switch is working as it should we can test the circuit thru the neutral light - should see 12v at the relay connector on light blue/white (LB/W) wire - No only 9.9 volts - (voltage drop across diodes and LED?) (Battery measures 12.98 volts)

    Voltage at relay connector clockwise from lower right corner (light blu/Wt) - 9.9, 11.75, 0, 11.77, 0, 12.88, 0, 12.88 (we are at lower left corner), 12.88 (we are at red/wt upper left corner), 12.87, 11.71, 0, 0 (we are at upper right corner red/blu wire).

    For neutral light to be on all the time, doesn't that mean that one or more of these diodes in the relay unit are bad? That is a sealed unit - can only look in thru connector

    continuity from LB/W to LB - 2.5 M Ohms - from diagram this is resistance across one diode - using the diode test function on the multimeter I get .586 v drop in one direction and 0 v in other direction - Fluke says the diode is good?

    continuity from LB/W to Blu (side stand switch wire) - 6.7 M Ohms - - using the diode test function on the multimeter I get 1.15v v drop in one direction and 0 v in other direction?

    All other continuities to LB/W are open.

    Well boys there is some data - does it tell you anything? If neutral light is always on seems like something is amiss in that relay unit??

    Whatcha think?