Help me achieve perfection - WR450 twin Adv conversion

Discussion in 'Some Assembly Required' started by MotoPolo, Apr 22, 2016.

  1. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

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    Interesting. So is the HID signal radiating (EMI?) to affect other sensors? OR is the signal traveling through the wire harness (conducting?)? My light wire harness is seperate from bike harness except chassis ground and + BATT. A lot of inmates have been using the HIDs and this is the first I have heard of issues.
  2. sanjoh

    sanjoh Purveyor of Light

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    EMI or RF, the booster box takes DC power, converts it to AC usually a minimum of 30kv to drive the arc. Bike was an 03 Triumph 955i, first issue, shortly after installing the HIDs, the OEM digital clock lost several segments, then when blank. The ballasts (2 headlights) were as far forward on the headlight subrame as I could get them. Next issue was the fuel gauge was inconsistent, then stopped working. Been many years ago, all this in the middle of trip, living on the bike you notice things. One day I pulled into the auto parts store, yank the HIDs, into the trash and back to halogen. Replaced fuel level sender and the gauge worked fine, never replaced the clock. Never any running issues like you describe.

    Good luck figuring out the issue.
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  3. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

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    Plumer - A new ICON for your AdvRider handle.

    So I went out and did a test an here are the results. I am going to try to answer all your questions.

    Just go for a short ride with clutch open circuit (engine think is NOT idling)
    6000 rpm's or more at second gear.Normal temp.
    Close the throttle, pull the clutch and go to neutral immediately.
    According to the first comment your engine will stall.


    I could not get the engine to stall

    Then close the circuit and test again.

    Still no stall.

    Here is my test with Clutch Switch installed.
    Note this is not a good test - connected clutch switch, did not test to see if I can start bike in gear (bad), went about 1 Km, came to stop light, pulled in clutch and bike stalled. What I don't know for sure is did I connect switch properly - I could have plugged wires into the wrong terminals on the switch (3 terminal SW) which would have had the wires shorted to start and when I pulled the clutch it opened the wires. If so that would have been similar to your first case. Bike was running with shorted clutch wires (maybe) - Like I said - bad test so not a very good data point.

    Second test. I unplugged one wire from switch - Clutch wires are now open - I rode for a long time - bike got warm, cooled, high speed , very low speed , no hiccups or misses.

    Third test - plugged wire back into switch - tested bike to make sure I could start in gear with clutch pulled. Rode for a fair bit and it ran fine. -No issues.

    Forth Test was to short both wires and
    "Just go for a short ride with clutch open circuit (engine think is NOT idling)
    6000 rpm's or more at second gear.Normal temp.
    Close the throttle, pull the clutch and go to neutral immediately.
    According to the first comment your engine will stall. "-


    Engine would not stall

    Fifth test - repeat with wires open - engine would not stall

    With the new relay :
    • Neutral light and gear indicator work as purposed.
    • The engine can start and run at neutral.
    • Selecting a gear, kills the engine unless closed circuit at 22 no matter state of 61.
    • But needs closed circuit at 61 and kill switch to start the engine when in gear.
    For those following 61 is the clutch switch and 22 is side stand switch

    Yes the above is correct.

    It is you to decide if 61 will be at open or close circuit state.
    I will tell you once more that close circuit at 61 provides ground to ECU (the B/Y wire ).
    We don't know exactly what is triggering -i have a theory- but you can test ride to find out.
    Roadracer_ confirms my theory on 690's """""
    This is the post.

    The black/yellow wire....!!!That wire informs the ECU that the bike is on neutral or with clutch engaged.
    Meaning that you are NOT riding!That's what the ECU thinks...
    Why that?
    Or to get in a "safe mode" (AFR ,ignition timing etc.) like many vehicles do nowadays .
    Or something else that only YAMAHA knows.

    Perhaps there is a component inside the ECU that is working (while it shouldn't) when the clutch is closed circuit and can't stand the heat as it is supposed to work only when idling.

    Does open circuit at 61 solved your problem @MotoPolo ?


    I think you nailed this. If I was paying attention I probably could have found the problem sooner. Yes - so far opening 61 solves the problem!!!!!

    You flashed the ECU.
    Temp problems are history?
    And your low end power?
    Whellies?


    Yes to all. I believe my bike never really had a temperature problem but the reflash now has the fan coming on much sooner so better for low speed dirt bike. You said I should see easy wheelies and now I do. I'm a little concerned I will flip it. Much more low end torque and more power throughout RPM range. I will report on fuel mileage but looking at the
    instantaneous reading on the meter it looks like it is using more fuel. Consistent with theory that stock bike are set up lean.

    First fix the source .Then you can follow the "path" to achieve perfection.

    Good advice - I am hopeful that with the your help and others I am there. (took awhile)

    After all i'm here to help just because you "help-me-achieve-perfection" asked for!

    Yes I did and you helped - a lot - Thank you!!!

    I will be doing a few more rides before our big Canada to Mexico trip but I am feeling much better. Today is the first day I didn't experience any issues with bike in a known state (61 open). Maybe a quality clutch switch will let me start bike in gear with no issues.

    By the way, I could not discern any difference in maps with 61 open vs 61 connected to the switch (assuming switch was ALWAYS working as it should).

    Some more info: I got a hold of the Flat track racer and asked what he does with 61 - he leaves it open but his ECU is flashed to always run in 4th gear (and flat trackers don't shift or brake). He could not recall what he did at 22.

    The ECU flasher (dyno guys) said don't by-pass the clutch - will mess you up (they didn't recommend leaving it open either - they said use the switch).

    NOW TO GO RIDE AND ENJOY THIS BEAST - THANKS EVERYONE!
  4. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    May have been discussed already but if you really dont want to use a clutch switch it can be replaced with a relay thats triggered by the starter switch.
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  5. plumer1kt

    plumer1kt Adventurer

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    ECU do not cut off fuel injectors during deceleration.Both cases your bike returned to idle.What the guy in the other forum was thinking?Maybe he had other non electrical problems....We don't care about him.
    The engine needs fuel on deceleration while not if you pull the clutch.My thought about... Again,different map.
    Google " keihin air cut off valve " for the analog version... of "map"



    No comments here.We are not sure for switch connection.But if it was similar with my first case why didn't happened in the previous test...?

    That is the way the bike should run.Open circuit and everything ok!

    We still don't know for your connection in the switch.Probably you still had open circuit or else the misses and stalls would be there again.

    You had this test at the beginning or i'm missing something?


    :thumbup

    :clap
    I understood that 5 pages back...
    I'm in this thread from your first post.One thing i can tell for sure is :
    If a post is helping you and you already know that, you like it immediately.Then you answer.
    If you think that a post is not helping you , you just like it and keep it in the back of your head.
    If you think that a post is going to help you, you are pressing that like button after you had analyzed it and in some cases confirmed it..Even if it didn't solved your problem.
    The above is a rule with exceptions....of course.
    Well....i knew that you were doing my tests.There wasn't a like and i knew that your problem was a history when you liked my post.....2 days later!
    Same way for those posts you never paid attention.
    For any bad situation that happens a good one is born
    "ουδέν κακόν αμιγές καλού"
    Is there a fuel flow meter or ECU is taking info from all the sensors to calculate and inform you about your fuel consumption?If so,now after the ECU flash what calculations are used and based on what parameters...?
    Take your own measurements
    :-)
    Agree!
    You probably won't tell any difference unless you do a lot of miles to "feel" the bike and then close the circuit to ....return "back".
    I "played" with the TPS in my transalp.
    TPS is there to adjust the ignition timing on LOW load riding.The only thing i noticed is a slightly better throttle response.Nothing more.
    But!I'm having 10% LESS fuel consumption on backroad trips.
    That by changing 8 degrees the sensor mount.
    But there is something that you may "feel".
    Pooping sounds on deceleration .When the mixture is richer you have less backfire sounds.
    Searched the " keihin air cut off valve "???

    Use the switch.It's good to have it on a difficult trail when you have to hold the bike with your left foot and you need to start the engine.How you are going to put the neutral?
    Beside the different map story.
    Anyway there is another (dyno) guy to confirm that.

    Happy your problem is history!

    Ride safe!
    outbacktm and MotoPolo like this.
  6. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

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    Drjoe - I do want to use the switch - I didn't think I needed to, plus I didn't know I could get a switch for my Magura clutch (which is SOOO nice for just feathering the clutch). If the switch works well I will keep it.

    Just curious how would the relay work? open contacts with starter switch? We already know closed contacts steady state is a NO- NO. For open contacts I can just disconnect the switch.

    I really need the switch for starting in gear - every dirt bike needs this.
  7. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

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    Plumer1kt - I did your two tests last - tests 4 and 5 in my list. Fuel consumption figures are just based on the dash readout - I have been recording my fillups - a few more miles on the new map and I'll report findings. I do have less popping on throttle off.
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  8. shinyribs

    shinyribs Thumpers for life

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    There is an injector cut on decel. That's why the stock bikes have such strong engine braking, and why some guys that don't like it get the ECU flashed. There's an "ECO" icon that will come on the dash when you're driving "green". No matter what you are doing, the instant you pull in the clutch ( clutch switch) that ECO icon will go out. There's something about an open loop and a closed loop fuel injection map that bike uses whether it's idling or being ridden. The clutch switch is how the bike knows what to do. I don't understand all that openloop/closed loop stuff, but I see absolutely no harm in incorporating a clutch switch to function as stock. The are causing exactly zero issues, so I see no need to circumnavigate it just because.

    There's absolutely zero performance gain in tossing the clutch switch. You built a damn frame from scratch! I'm POSITIVE you can rig up a simple switch without Magura's help :lol3

    On the issue of random stalling, check your throttle body synch? Lot's of early bikes had this issue, but there was nothing mechanically wrong with the bikes. Mine is a '16. First service is supposed to come at 600 miles, and throttle body synch is part of that. I broke my engine in hard and the idle was getting rough by 200 miles. I started experiencing some weak idles, but only one stall caused by an brupt throttle blip one day. I synch'd the TB's and it ran great for another 8k miles or so, when I had to synch up again. I'm at 16k miles and the idle is not as smooth as it should be, and it doesn't like to lug below 1600 or so anymore. It's time for another TB synch. I started the bike today and it instantly started and stalled. Seems 8k miles is the magic number for me needing to do TB synchs. Hope this helps :)
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  9. plumer1kt

    plumer1kt Adventurer

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    Trigger the relay with
    • +12v
    • -12v from the starter button (the wire that triggers the starter relay)
    The other two contacts on the clutch wires .
    You will need a NO relay with a DIODE .
    When you hit the starter button the relay simultaneously will close the clutch circuit.

    If can find a switch for your clutch lever just do it and don't mess with relays and extra wiring.
    The simpler the better.

    EDIT:
    Eco indicator is there to help you ride with ECOnomy..
    And what would be the worst part of riding for fuel economy?
    IDLING.
    Closed throttle and clutch pulled....
    That indicator is there to help you ride economically.Does not means the injectors are shutting down
    You tube search for "ECO indicator"
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  10. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

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    Suspension - So far I don't want to change a thing. As far as I know forks have stock 2014 YZ450 shim stack and I confirmed they have stock springs (.47kg/mm). Lowered 30mm and Zeta floating pistons with 330cc of Racetech 5Wt oil. Compression and rebound adjusters are 12 clicks from bottom (about half way). I was able to almost bottom them on a pretty square berm but no harshness. I may increase compression a bit.

    Rear is stock 690 2014 (white spring) - I believe that is 8kg/mm.I haven't messed with shock settings. This is all with fully loaded bike.
  11. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

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    Shinyribs - I am not near my shop manual - is TB sync just a matter of flowing the same amount of air through each TB at idle? Do you do it yourself and what tool do you use?

    thanks
  12. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

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    When you hit the starter button the relay simultaneously will close the clutch circuit.

    I am missing something. Didn't we conclude that closing the clutch circuit ALL THE TIME is bad. That was the condition that caused all of my problems. The only state that is acceptable all the time is OPEN CIRCUIT (wires disconnected).

    I'll make the switch work.
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  13. plumer1kt

    plumer1kt Adventurer

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    You need close circuit just to start the engine.That will happen only when you hit the starter button and the relay simultaneously will close the clutch circuit.Once the bike run and the starter button is not pressed any more then the relay will open the circuit.
    Think of it as a auto-momentary switch.
    Or like hitting the starter switch and pull the clutch at the same time.
    I prefer the clutch switch.
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  14. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

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    Shinyribs - just found a youtube using a manometer to sync - looks pretty easy to do.
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  15. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

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    OHHH - now I get it - relay opens circuit when starter switch is released - that would work - I like clutch switch.
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  16. shinyribs

    shinyribs Thumpers for life

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    Yes, sir. It's just like synching carbs, which I believe you are familiar with. You got this :thumb
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  17. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    As previously mentioned it just mimics the clutch being pulled whilst your pressing the starter button.

    Not sure the benefits out weigh the extra wiring compared to just running a clutch switch.



    A
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  18. MotoPolo

    MotoPolo So many places, so little time Supporter

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    Agree - Sorry it took me so long to get the concept - not a bad solution.
  19. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    Ive never needed to do it myself due to riding the mighty dr650 that doesnt need such things but i do a bit of fabrication work for a race car builder and they do it to there gsxr1300 motors.
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  20. webmonstro

    webmonstro A Aventura Continua....

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    Does the switch use 12v ?
    If so you can achieve the same witha a simple diode and connecti it to the starter button, less complicated and more reliable then a relay