HELP! Vibration problem

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by crazybrit, Jun 12, 2011.

  1. topolino

    topolino Adventurer

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    Im going to stick with it being in the bike, not the engine. My reasoning is if you pull a plug wire off any engine the miss is most noticable at idle and sometimes hard to detect at higher RPM. Same with assembling a balance shaft wrong or putting a weighted flywheel on wrong. Sorry I am out of sugestions on the source. Have you tried putting your hand or foot directly on the engine? Maybe do the same with another bike to verify the engine itself has more vibs? Sorry man, we feel your pain. Just tossing out thoughts
    #21
  2. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    I appreciate the thoughts. I have it torn down again right now.

    No tanks, no crash guards, no bash plate, no handguards, nada. Just a MotionPro fuel bottle. I'm going to find a way to strap it to the bike and ride it around tomorrow, hopefully won't go down in a ball of fire :lol3

    Right now, on the side stand it's as vibey as before. KTM mechanic had me remove each bodywork/guard item at a time and test each step. I talked to him again and he confirmed, on side stand, in neutral, it should not be that vibey.

    Here is a video of the slides bike revving upto 5000 rpm and they seem fine.

    The initial Iridium CR8EIX plugs -- new when I did all the mods -- seemed to show the front cyl being way too rich but the new CR8EK standard plugs I installed 150 miles ago don't confirm this, front is a little rich but not terrible compared to rear. Either way it's a bit strange as the rear cyl jetting is richer (no, I did not get confused and swap the mains).

    CR8EIX
    [​IMG]

    CR8EK left (rear), right (front):
    [​IMG]



    I'll try your suggestions tomorrow. It's going to turn out to be something unbelievably obvious :D
    #22
  3. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    #23
  4. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

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    Tony, I don't see any vibes in the video, but I thought I could hear a miss on one cylinder near the high end of your rev run.
    #24
  5. topolino

    topolino Adventurer

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    I hear the miss/sputter as well. Reminds me of when you hit just that right spot of throttle and load and the needle needs moved up or down a clip.
    #25
  6. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

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    Boy the sound sure is authenic with the Altec Lansing 5.1 on this desktop computer. Couldn't hear the subtleties on my tiny netbook:ear
    Have you tried swapping the coils round to see if the rich cylinder moves to the rear?
    I'd video my '03 for comparison, but it would surely scare the neighbors chickens:D
    PS maybe I will anyway :rofl
    #26
  7. crashmaster

    crashmaster ow, my balls!

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    The vibe in my bike is slightly different than yours.

    In southern Chile my 990 developed a vibration between 4200 - 4700 rpm. IIRC with about 30,000 miles on the clock. But it only is noticeable in 6th gear at a low throttle position. Much more noticeable with loaded bags on the bike as the sound of the motor changes and I get bad vibes in the bars and pegs. If I get on the throttle more in that rpm range, the vib goes away. :huh Fuel quality has no effect neither does changing the ignition map. It has been doing this for the last 20,000 miles.

    Checked all engine mounting bolts as well.... good.

    I changed plugs, sync'd the TB's but it didnt help either.

    (EDIT) Oil level is right as well, checked after riding the bike for some time, not just a idle warm up.

    I know its not much of a help to you but just an FYI.

    good luck with getting it sorted.

    Vince
    #27
  8. AdvGa

    AdvGa Long timer

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    Make sure your OIL LEVEL is not Overfilled...this can cause some strange events.
    #28
  9. mastro

    mastro n00b

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    Hi Crazy brit, I to feel your pain, I have been chasing this for a while, I did an earlier post on this, Vibration at 4500 rpm. I now notice the vibration at 3500 rpm. I have tried all the usual stuff, carb balancing, chains, tires etc, no change. when crusing at 60 -70 mph, if I pull the clutch and let the enging idle, everything smooths out, keep the clutch pulled in and rev the engine, I can feel the vibration, which I now belive is a bearing going bad, if you read Pyndon great post on rebuilding his engine with updated cases, he points out that KTM added bearing retaing plates, to later models, maybe we have a bearing trying to walk out of the case?? also he points to the updated balancer shaft and bearings?? this is where I plan to start looking!.
    Like you I have lost motivation, and I plan to ride the thing until it destroys its self or winter comes, when i will do a full tear down.
    One more point, KTM know what this problem is, as the newer models don't viberate any where near as bad as ours, when I talk to them all I get is the deer in the headlighs look!!
    I hope you can prove me wrong on the bearings.
    Steve
    #29
  10. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    No progress made till now. Too many home projects in July, then August prepping the 450 for the TAT, then riding the TAT. Then I guess procrastination till it became too cold to work in the garage :baldy but it's warming up a bit now :D

    A recap on the original problem
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    - I did all the work, valve check (no adjustment, no loosening of the bridges). Checked jetting changes done by previous owner. Replaced water pump. Installed 2:1.
    - Bike started first time. I left it to idle for 20 mins. Probably too long.
    - Bike then abruptly died and refused to restart. Drained original 2006 battery. Recharged it. Drained it again trying to get bike started. Took battery to Batteries Plus. Tested bad. Replaced it. Drained new battery trying to start. Smack head against wall. Put new battery on charger. Removed plugs. Cleaned them. Reinstalled. Voila. Bike started first time.
    - Problem is that during the many attempts to get the bike to start, some cold as the battery had been recharging, the bike made some horrible backfires. REALLY scary.

    On first ride I could tell something was wrong as the bike would start to vibe at 4500rpm and by 6000 it was very noticable.

    So I've pulled everything off. Gone back to 2:2. Checked the jetting. Checked all the frame bolts. Checked carb sync (not that this could cause it).

    I pulled the plugs (see top pics in post #25) and the front plug (new Iridiums) seemed overly rich which is contrary to the jetting, real cyl should be richer. I bought some new stock plugs and they now seem similar color (see bottom pic in post #25).

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    So I posted this update a while back (post #25 ) which included the following video:

    <object width="400" height="300"><param name="allowfullscreen" value="true" /><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always" /><param name="movie" value="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=25287165&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;show_title=0&amp;show_byline=0&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=00adef&amp;fullscreen=1&amp;autoplay=0&amp;loop=0" /><embed src="http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=25287165&amp;server=vimeo.com&amp;show_title=0&amp;show_byline=0&amp;show_portrait=0&amp;color=00adef&amp;fullscreen=1&amp;autoplay=0&amp;loop=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="400" height="300"></embed></object><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/25287165">Untitled</a> from <a href="http://vimeo.com/user7423906">Tony Jones</a> on <a href="http://vimeo.com">Vimeo</a>.</p>

    Posts 26 and 27 seemed to be hearing a stumble.


    I did the following last night:
    - checked both coils (tested ok with ohmmeter)
    - pulled the carbs off the bike. I checked the float levels, not that I think they could remotely cause this. I've checked that the jetting is ok 3 times now but I suppose I should give the carbs a thorough cleaning. Anything to specifically do/avoid when doing this?


    I guess my thinking on the issue at this point is:

    1) there is an issue with one cylinder which is causing the stumble people hear. My problem with this is that the bike pulls hard, gets to 100mph just as before.

    2) when the bike backfired while cold there wasn't sufficient oil pressure to the cam chain tensioners and I screwed up the counter balancer. This is an interesting thread Sadly this is where my money is.


    Anyways, I believe all the low hanging fruit has been checked.

    After I clean and recheck the carbs I was going to pull the valve cover off and verify that the cams are correctly aligned at TDC. My assumption is that this isn't the issue as if I was just one tooth off I'd be way down on power.

    After this inmate MY ADV (who's at 90k on his 950) has offered to help me debug it. I think he's had the balancer apart on this bike.

    I'll want to bolt it all back together first so he can see it acting up. That's the pita here, the amount of time it takes to go from taken apart to rideable on a test ride and I've only been putting the left tank on. Once I test rode it with my motion pro fuel bottle strapped to the side in lieu of the tanks :D

    Suggestions/advice is most welcome.
    #30
  11. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    Well not much news to report.

    Inmate MY ADV came over to help me as he's replaced his camchains before which is deeper than I've got. His 04 950 is quite vibey. It has 95k miles on it, he told me at around 20k it started to vibrate a lot more. Hmmn.

    Today I testrode Brauhausbiers 06 and it was like I recall mine being in the past. His has a slight vibration point at 3000 rpm but it's gone by 3500 and it's smooth sailing all the way upto 7000rpm. When I got back to his house I tried it on the side stand in neutral, observing mirror vibration and I can see his mirrors briefly blur from 3000-3500, then it's smooth so it matches the sense I get from riding his bike.

    The reason I rode Brauhausbiers bike today was because I was talking to Beerslayer (I tried his 06S last year as soon as I thought mine was vibey - see post #7) and his bike was ultra smooth) and he told me this weekend that Brauhausbiers bike was similar to his in terms of vibes.

    Looking at the repair manual the balancer chain gear is locked to the balancer shaft and the pinion gear is locked to the crank and the two gears mesh, so there appears no way for the balancer to move independent of the crank.

    Also I pulled the carbs apart, cleaned them and checked float level. Also removed the valve covers again and verified that the cam timing is correct. Not that I expected an issue there as if I was off a tooth I expect the bike would run like crap.

    I pulled in the clutch going steep downhill at 70 on the freeway and there is no vibration from the chassis plus since it happens in neutral on the side stand I think that pretty much nails it as not a rolling chassis issue.

    Only other possibility is somehow one of the cylinders is running differently. However, the bike seems (apart from the vibration) to be running really well and making a lot of power.
    #31
  12. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    What a pain in the arse. Just keep the faith, hang in there.

    I can't believe your main bearing would be the source of the vibration if you didn't also hear it making significant noise. But here’s holding thumbs.

    So, presuming that for the moment the crank is not the source and all the other obvious things have come up nothing, the big things spinning in there are the clutch, the flywheel and the balancers. The first two could be an issue only if you’ve left something in the flywheel or the bearing in the clutch basket is shot or a tang has bust off. Othewise the balancers are your next to last bet.

    It is possible to put the engine back together with balancers out of phase and still have the timing correct. – Start with crank at TDC then forget the dots meant to line up the balancer gear with the timing ring, then, install the cams at TDC. It would be relatively simple to check to see if you did this by just pulling the clutch cover off to see if you’ve got this right.

    [​IMG]

    If this is correct, then I’d go have a look behind that nut to see if the woodruff keys haven’t been sheared (seriously doubt it). The left hand balancer is pressed onto the splined balancer shaft so I doubt it has moved.

    Other than that I got zilch.

    For me, A too tight chain creates your symptoms sometimes and to a lesser extent balanced carbs but you checked all this.

    Keep at it.
    #32
  13. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    Thanks for the comment. I agree it's possible to do this. Problem is that I didn't touch the balancer. I got the bike with 180 miles on it so I'm fairly confident the balancer is in the state that it was when the factory assembled it.


    The only things I did inside the motor with this most recent service were:


    • check valves, in spec albeit at the extremities. Anyways, no adjustment made.

    • water pump, i messed up the clutch cover on mine trying to R&R the bearings. I'd prefer not to relive the details :cry I installed a used clutch cover and water pump from a 2004 (same cover part# as my 2006 - 60030001044) which had just had a dealer performed water pump R&R 1k miles earlier. The only possibility here is that the plane bearing (bushing) pressed into the clutch cover which the crank end runs in is out of spec on this 2004 cover. I briefly talked to Pyndon about this and he said there was no way this would cause the vibes :dunno

    • loosened and torqued all the clutch pressure bolts as per the TSB https://cpmodem.smugmug.com/gallery/4984365_pXwnS#!i=298697195&k=4F3SX

    Yes, this is the only way I can see that the balancer could have slipped. I seriously doubt it also but it's worth checking. Thanks!
    #33
  14. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    This is what I was referring to above. I think it's pretty unlikely that it is the issue but I could be wrong.

    [​IMG]



    Anyways, it seems the time has come to pop the clutch cover off and take a look around.

    Obviously make sure that the balancer is still in spec.

    I now have a bore gauge so I can test the above plane bearing from the 04 cover.

    I also bought a new clutch cover (upgraded 08 part# 60030001144) so I could install my old 06 waterpump into this and install that to see if it changes things.

    I can't think of anything else that I caused.
    #34
  15. StevenD

    StevenD Hmmmm, dirt!

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    what part of the clutch did you change? a part thats static to the crank? than change back first.

    Sounds and looks (the plugs) like a timing issue could well be the case here. either the bobine, spark cap thats really off of a cam chain jumped would be what i'd look at first. doing a 100mph is nothing, does it still make 130? :)

    I too dont think this is a motor damage related issue.

    You can't really test a coil. just install 2 others from a diffrent bike to test them properly.
    with the really black plug on the front, i'd look in to that cyllinder being the culprit.
    #35
  16. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    I didn't change any part of the clutch.

    What is "bobine".

    I've checked the cam timing, marks are correctly aligned at TDC for each cylinder. Rear cylinder marks and balancer marks are also aligned when the crank locking bolt indicates TDC.

    What does "spark cap thats really off of a cam chain jumped" mean? As I said above, the balancer looks good. I'm not sure what else could have "jumped"?

    Agree, cylinder imbalance is a possibility.

    I just took the clutch and generator covers off. Couldn't see anything that was an issue. One thing I did notice was that the gap between the pickup magnet and teeth of the pickup ring was 0.4mm with a feeler gauge. Spec is 0.6-1.0mm. Both bolts were tight on the pickup so I don't think it's moved. Before I adjust it I want to bolt it back together and run the peak voltage test in the manual. There is also a test to verify that sufficient voltage is getting to the coils.

    Tony
    #36
  17. GZERO

    GZERO Fixing stuff around

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    Have you check your handlebar and it's mounts? i have seen them vibrating more because of a loose bolt or when the handlebar starts to fracture.
    Most of the times you're talking about the vibes you use reference your mirror or your hands, and all of those is in the handlebar.
    The 950 is vibbey, they fix that with the new balancer shaft the 990 has, but yours wasn't bad before all this started, so i'm kinda taking the stock vibes out of the equation.
    Also, you would want to tackle the crankshaft bearing well, meassure everything really good, because everything started when you changed the cover.
    #37
  18. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    So the bike is now at the dealer (ktmnorthwest). Has been actually for past month but Todd finally got around to looking at it yesterday. He rechecked all the things I already had (motor mounts etc) at direction of KTM N/A head tech. I had asked him to check the handlebars (I hadn't specifically but nothing had changed there -- he said vibes were too bad to be bars). Now he's pulling parts off the motor (clutch and generator side) to check the runout .... I wasn't comfortable doing this plus I wanted the dealer to talk to KTM N/A.

    Before I took it in I installed a brand new clutch cover and new water pump. Vibration remained. I checked the diameter of the plane bearing (bushing) that's pressed into the clutch cover with a bore gauge. Identical to the the used cover I'd installed (mentioned above). Plus the used bearing showed no signs of wear. The crank is supported by a roller bearing in the case half so it's only the end of the crank that runs in this bushing. The only option would be that <somehow> the used cover caused the crank to slip and the new cover can't fix it but I cannot see how this could be, if that happened I'd expect to see wear on the bushing.

    We shall see what comes of this. I set him a $400 limit. Hopefully it's not, ok, your at $400 and you have this pile of parts. Add another $200 for me to put them all back on :D
    #38
  19. 4badboyz

    4badboyz Been here awhile

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    any news yet?
    #39
  20. mcmann

    mcmann Adventure Rider Junkie Supporter

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    Is it possible to use rubber engine mounts . . . Especially on the front?

    [​IMG]
    #40