HELP! Vibration problem

Discussion in 'Dakar champion (950/990)' started by crazybrit, Jun 12, 2011.

  1. slackmeyer

    slackmeyer Don't mean sheeit. .

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    interesting. I hope it works for you, seems like it should. . . . was the leak down tester for the new engine or the old one?
    #61
  2. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    I plan to test both. A bad result for the 04 wouldn't make me happy but it was (as you know) my own piss-poor-planning that meant I couldn't test before I purchased.

    Once I get the new MP hose I'll be able to use the tester. I've already sorted out the NPT adapter. I'm curious on the 06; I doubt it has any bearing on the vibes but it's been an oil burner since I got it at 180 miles (about 1 liter per 1000 miles so less than what KTM considers a problem but hardly ideal when you're south of the border). The seller of the 04 motor assured me that it burned no oil but it did seem down on power compared to my 06, hard to tell as the jetting was way off.
    #62
  3. MortimerSickle

    MortimerSickle Semi-Adventurer

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    Big flat spot at about 4500?
    #63
  4. slackmeyer

    slackmeyer Don't mean sheeit. .

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    I wish you luck. Some days I think my 06 runs as perfect as ever it could. Other days I'm convinced I got a lemon. I have a couple friends with 04s with nice quiet smooth engines, contrary to what everyone says about them, whereas mine seems noisier, having a less even idle, and burns a little oil.
    #64
  5. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    Yeah, there seems a lot of inconsistency in the KTM motors. The LC4 was the same, some would shake your fillings out, others weren't too bad.

    I figure the worst scenario is that the vibes are the same after I install the 04 into my chassis. Second worst is that the act of swapping rather than the motor itself solves the issue and I split the cases on the 06 trying to debug an non-existent problem. So this weekend I'm going to remove, clean and re-install every electrical connector on the 06 motor. I'd previously checked the frame mount torque but I'm going to support the motor, loosen and retorque them all. Basically do everything involved in a a motor swap except for removing the cooling and oil systems. I'll do a hot leakdown on the 06 then and if the vibes persist as I expect I'll swap the motors.
    #65
  6. slackmeyer

    slackmeyer Don't mean sheeit. .

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    My LC4 vibration doesn't bother me a bit. . . . it's only noticeable at idle, to me anyway. Did you ever change the exhaust back to 2-2? I'm speculating that my bike has an occasional backfire through the carb at just off of idle because of the rear header or 2-1. Haven't found the leak yet though.
    #66
  7. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    Yes. The 2:1 was one of the first things that got reverted.
    #67
  8. c-zulu

    c-zulu Works with Turds

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    Looking forward to what you find, my 06 ADV suffers the same vibration issue. I have a 07 SE and it's much smoother..
    #68
  9. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    So I guess it's time for an update .......

    I installed the new (well, old, 2004 with 20k miles) motor and it didn't change the vibrations :baldy.

    I was able to test ride the bike with the 04 motor before I removed it. It was hard to tell as the jetting was way off so the bike was bogging badly plus it was January, heavy fog and I couldn't really see where I was going :D but still, my recollection is that it was pretty smooth when I was at rpm ranges where the jetting was better

    MortimerSickle (Ken) helped me R&R the motor into my frame.

    Since swapping the motor I've taken the carbs apart, put a new front tire on (new Scorp replacing a Karoo2), checked the carb sync twice, checked chain tension (via lining up the swingarm, countershaft and axle), swapped the fuel pump with a new one, swapped the ECU, swapped ignition coils, run the coil voltage test in the manual (inconclusive *1), loosened and retorqued the motor and subframe mounts (obviously they were loosened and torqued when the motor was swapped), swapped HDB barkbusters back to OEM plastic handguards, swapped out OEM luggage rack for OEM grab rails, verified float levels in the carbs are consistent when bike is running by running clear tubing up/out of the float bowl drains .........

    I'd ridden several other 950s which were all a lot smoother than mine but I'd never ridden Ken's so we went for a short ride around town. After 100 yards I could tell his was way smoother but he was oddly unconvinced. So we went on a longer 150 mile ride and after 5 miles on open roads he pulled in and agreed it was vibrating badly.

    I talked a bit to HellsAlien, he had no better ideas other than to have resident analytical expert Luke come over and take a look. Generously Luke and MortimerSickle came over. First thing we did was swap the BRP triple clamps out and reinstall the OEM ones. The BRP had been on the bike since I bought it at 180 miles. I'd never touched them prior to noticing the initial onset of the vibration but I had removed the bars to check the damping rubbers (dealer advice) during the initial debugging and reinstalled them as they looked good at that time.

    Bottom line it's better with the OEM clamps, you don't really notice the distinct arrival of the vibes at 4500 through the bars anymore.

    This said I think all 3 of us agreed that the bike still vibrates noticeably more than Ken's (and to me more than the other 2 950's I've tested). You can feel the vibes through the pegs and especially through the tank.

    Not really sure on much else anymore. The tank damping rubbers are in good condition and all the spacers are present. I'm going to bolt it back together and take it for a long(er) ride tomorrow.

    One thing I'd noticed on the previous long rides with the new motor (150 and 200 miles) was that the bike seemed to running rougher in city traffic at the end of the ride but it was hard to quantify. The 3 of us rode it around the city several times over 5 hours during the recent triple clamp changeover and consensus was that the bike was running great, making good power. Temps were around 78.

    I started a separate thread on the BRP triple clamp as I'd like to go back to using it. I can't help thinking that while swapping the clamps has helped, there is another issue somewhere on the bike. What is the question.


    *1 the inconclusive test was the ignition coil test on page 7-16 of the service manual:
    Code:
    ECU 950 Adventure/Supermoto/Super Enduro
    Check the cables and socket connectors on the ECU 1 (950
    Adventure) and 2 (950 Supermoto/Super Enduro).
    A functional check of the ECU can only be performed on an ignition
    test stand.
    1
    – Check the ignition coil control: remove the ignition coil connector
    and apply the measuring tips of the peak voltage adapter to the pins
    of the connector AS (see checking the ignition coils).
    – Actuate the tip switch and let the starter engine run for a few
    seconds
    Multimeter reading: 12 volts
    
    We were getting only about 9.5v peak at AS when cranking the starter but this is also what we were seeing at the battery. Page 7-13 says "Battery voltage is supplied to both ignition coils 6 via the emergency OFF switch, the ground is switched by the ECU", so I'm not sure under what conditions they believe you'll see 12v if the starter is running, test seems invalid to me (and to Luke and he's a Electrical Engineer :D).
    #69
  10. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    Well, you get 5 gold stars for persistence!
    #70
  11. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    It's funny as out on the last test ride, Ken was riding my bike and we almost got rear ended. Not that I'd want Ken to have been injured but I'd take an insurance settlement at this point. Part the bike out as I'm pretty sure both motors are fine.
    #71
  12. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob Supporter

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    Did the motor mounts line up ok? Tweaked mounts or frame will create some harmonics on some bikes.

    Steering head bearings tight? Wonder if the races are loose in the frame or on the steering stem.

    Sub frame loose? Straw grasping here.

    I just read the whole thread and don't remember, can you create the vibes while stopped? Would be easier to track down.

    There ain't much else.
    #72
  13. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    Motor was pretty easy to install, everything seemed to line up ok. We checked for loose steering head bearings when we swapped the triple clamp. I've loosened and retorqued the subframe bolts to spec.

    Also on the original motor I'd not touched any of the above (or the triple clamp) so its a mystery to me why the vibes started, I'm still of the view its something related to the many changes I made (first post) and have now undone else we're into coincidence.

    I don't know anymore. When I first took the bike to KTM Gresham Todd ran it on the side-stand, the mirrors blurred badly and he said that was BAD. After I paid them $400 to later check over the bike, they couldn't find anything and the mirrors still did the exact same thing, he backtracked on this. The two 950's I tried a couple years ago were super smooth when I'd rev the bike on the side-stand, no blurring of the mirrors at all but Ken's 950 will blur the mirrors on the side-stand but it's smoother when riding.

    Clearly any vibes in the mirrors are a function of the triple clamps. My feeling is that I could feel more vibes touching the tank at 5k when on center stand vs Ken's bike but I need to test some more.
    #73
  14. CRW

    CRW I dont want a pickle

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    It's a long shot, but while the frame was stripped did you inspect all welds?
    #74
  15. rossguzzi

    rossguzzi 990 Adv.

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    Without reading the whole thread, I would have a guess at pulling the clutch basket out, checking it and reinstalling. Even chuck another one in for the hell of it. I imagine vibrations start by something out of ballance.
    Just m2cw.
    #75
  16. MortimerSickle

    MortimerSickle Semi-Adventurer

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    He has replaced the entire assembly, engine, transmission, and clutch.
    #76
  17. Central Cali Rider

    Central Cali Rider Love the journey and destination...

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    Man, since I have had this same issue on my 05 Adventure , I reviewed the whole thread. I always suspected the 4k vibes, but my first 950 ride was a friends 06 950 Supermoto. Wow great smooth motor. A year passed and I picked up this 05. Thought it was normal until a couple months back I rode my friends 06 950 Adv before he moved away. Darn, know I am going to chase this as I love the bike , just hate that 4000-5500 rpm vibes which is about highway speed.
    #77
  18. srad600

    srad600 Been here awhile

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    This is my thinking as well. If the motors are good, and the motor mounts are good, then maybe there's are fracture somewhere in the frame creating the added vibration?

    I have an XR650 with a broken motor mount, and It felt like someone flipped a switch one day, the bike got so buzzy. It took me a while to find the broken mount, but it could be something as simple as that?
    #78
  19. MortimerSickle

    MortimerSickle Semi-Adventurer

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    Not such a long shot. It is a good suggestion, but we did on a couple of occasions look over the frame for that kind of problem. I am not sure we were thorough enough, but it all looked good.
    #79
  20. crazybrit

    crazybrit Long timer

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    This morning I looked over the frame with a flashlight and I can't see anything. I was thorough. Obviously motor is in the frame but due to the suspended design you can still pretty much see everything.

    I'm heading out for a ride this afternoon.
    #80