Hero? Legend? Fool?

Discussion in 'Racing' started by JMo (& piglet), Oct 4, 2009.

  1. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    I was actually pretty sure it was the former (and was equally as sure that you would also see the funny side of it)... though I must say... your "delivery" on the radio report gave nothing away... very "straight faced" I must say :wink:. Did you study public speaking under John Cleese Jenny? :lol3

    Anywho... again, congratulations on a job very well done... both with the prep of your bike AND the execution of the rally! :clap :clap
  2. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    Hee hee - it's that deadpan British sense of humour you know x (coupled with a crackly phone line and a stinking cold too perhaps?!)...

    Anyways, looking at the Heroes-Legend final results page, it seems the strange mathematics they use for working out the penalty scores has also been applied to the total tally, and actually means I finished in 4th position overall when based on the final team standings (I being a solo rider of course)... This means I also finished ahead of the two guys on WR450 2-Tracs, to be the first Yamaha home - now that really is a result I'm proud of!

    Altogether now: "I - Like - big - bikes, and I cannot lie..." etc.

    xxx
  3. canadaler

    canadaler Been here awhile

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    Quite an adventure and accomplishment...kudos :freaky

    Your picture of the Tenere with the front wheel buried in the sand certainly brought back memories of Morocco for me....not exactly fond memories of that particular shared experience...:evil...but wow...has this thread ever got me thinking Heroes Legend now.

    Dropping another dime in the piggy bank tonight.
  4. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    Hi again Jenny;

    My appologies if my question has been posted here before, or you have anwered this previously... but I could not find the rules/regs anywhere on the HLR site...

    From what I can determine from looking at the score sheets; it appears that the "competition" stages are timed using an "ideal" set time for the stage? I assume that the competitors are given the average speed at the start of the stage and you have to work out your theoretical arrival time (or is this also nominated on your time card?).

    From the score sheets it appears that the competitor is penalized for arriving early (2 point per second) ie: riding "too fast", and penalized 1 point per second late if "too slow". In which case the competition stages are timed along the lines of a "reliability trial"... not an outright "sprint rally" like the FIM events... is this correct?

    Secondly; how are the "liason" (transport) stages timed/scored? One assumes there is a road penalty for arriving late... and if you arrive early, you wait outside the control zone at the end of the stage and then book in on your alloted minute... as per an FIM rally?

    Thanks,

    Troy C.
  5. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    Bad form to quote one's self I know...

    However, I think I see where the confusion has arisen... if you look at the final individual scores, the two Desert Dalton riders (no. 64 & 65) did finish in 4th and 5th position, then it was Marco on bike number 6, then me in 7th position...

    However, because the Daltons were entered as a team with their support 4x4 (the bloody one that ran me over!), the trucks score was also included and the result divided by three for the overall team/s result (in the same way Helly and Chris' scores have been added together giving them joint 2nd place)... I guess if the Daltons had left the truck at home they'd have finished ahead of me - oh, and I'd have a lot less scratches on my bike too of course!

    So in summary, I finished 7th in the bike class, but 4th in the overall classification...

    Of course in the grand scheme of things, none of this really matters - I have a lovely metal plaque, 3 nights in a stunning 5 star Austrian hotel, no broken bones, no broken bike, made many new friends and perhaps most importantly of all, we all have some fantastic memories that will last a lifetime...

    xxx
  6. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    Hi Jenny!

    Yes it appears you are correct... the "team" score classification is derived by an "average" of the scores of the different team members... ie: in the team classification it is a disadvantage to have a "slow" (or too fast) team member? :wink:

    As an "individual" in the team classification, you had only yourself to rely upon Jenny! :clap

    My interpretation of all this was; that you fiished 4th in the "team" classification and 7th overall in the individual moto classification.

    Mighty fine result however you look at it!

    (PS: did you have a chance to ponder my question on the timing/scoring method?)
  7. Hayduke

    Hayduke ///SAFETY THIRD/// Supporter

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    :clap Congratulations on a great finish, Jenny! And again; thank you so much for taking the time to do the Rally Raidio calls.
  8. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    Hi Troy - no problem, although if I knew the definitive answer, I'd have probably nailed the no.1 spot, as no-one really seemed to have grasped the concept completely!

    But yes, you are correct in your assumption - in an effort to provide a 'handicap' system so that slower and faster riders could compete on the same stages, and on a wide variety of machines without the whole timing going to pot - although admittedly this year it was all pretty much full-on rally bikes, or simpler enduro machines with big tanks. I imagine it was also implemented to stop people out-right racing against each other, which could be dangerous for both them and the public as this event uses open roads/trails, not closed course stages.

    By the end of the first week I think I'd got it sussed (hence the significant improvements in my day results, although they may well have been a healthy dose of luck too!). Basically you are given a target time for each stage, which also equates to an average speed - lets say the distance is 200kms, and you're given 4 hours, so that's an average of 50kmh for example...

    If you finish that stage within (or bang on) the four hours, there should also be enough time for you to complete the liaison to the next stage (you are also allotted a time for the liaison, but not penalised) - but you have to bear in mind there is a cut off start time for subsequent stages, so no long lunches or you won't be allowed to start the stage and will take a maximum time penalty for that stage.

    However, in the 200km illustration I gave above for example, it is not enough to ride at 60kmh for the first three hours, then have a rest/pee and ride the last sector at 20kmh to hit the target time, as the timing is actually done secretly via the E-track satellite system that times a sector of the total stage length (lets say between km 26 and 57, and again between 103 and 150 perhaps), and if you are not averaging the target speed during those periods, that is when you get the penalties, not over the total stage distance.

    This is where I was going wrong initially - I thought that if I (inevitably) had to slow down for a technical section (or got stuck in soft sand for example), then I had to correspondingly speed up in a later section to get my average speed back... of course this would be correct to ensure I reached the end of the stage close to the target time (and subsequently had enough time to liaise to the next stage start), however if I am then timed again in that latter half, the speed result will be that I'm now going too fast... which is why on some stages, I am seen to be going too fast and then too slow, or vs vs - depending on the number of timed 'sectors' they chose to incorporate in that particular stage.

    Does that make sense so far?

    Basically, the trick is to try and stay as close as possible to your target speed, for the duration of the stage, and therefore minimise and plus or minus readings and the subsequent penalty points (as you surmise, it is better to be going slightly too slow that slightly too fast, as you get double penalties for being too fast) as at some point, you will be timed via the E-track.

    However, while this is theoretically possible (and Chris bike no. 146 was typically very good at this) to maintain through the day, it is inevitable that you will have a problem, get stuck, crash, or make a navigational error etc. that will slow you down, and which is why no-one ever finished a stage or day without incurring some sort of penalty.

    Don't know about you, but my head hurts just thinking about it again!

    xxx
  9. stteve

    stteve Been here awhile

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    Wow, there is no need to actually enter the rally, if you understand the Fool who came up whith this result-calculating system you are my #1 Hero & Legend.

    Great result Jenny!
  10. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    Thank's for that very thorough answer Jenny! :clap

    The reason that I was curious, is that in 2007 I conducted an event (here in Sweden) that ran using the same concept. (DDU 2007)

    We (unfortunately) did not have the benefit of being able to use E-track technology to track/time the participants, but achieved the same end result (in a fashion) by having "secret" time checks at various intervals (known only to the organiser) along the route to monitor the passage of the riders. This was done for exactly the reason you referred to... to overcome a situation where a rider just "blazes" through a stage and waits outside the finish timing markers for their "theoretical arrival" time to clock up.

    We did this (as the HLR did) for the purposes of safety (as we also conducted the event on roads that were "open" and not "closed" rally stages as an FIM event requires/dictates)... AND also in an attempt to create a "level" playing field for participants on a wide variety of machinery, just as you alluded to was the case at HLR.

    One thing we found on DDU was; that the majority of the riders found the "mental" aspect of riding to this "ideal" speed and constantly monitoring/correcting their tempo to compensate for the average and thusly; attempt to arrive "on time, all the time" (as opposed to just blazing along and riding as quick as they could) was in itself quite a feat to master... and far more demanding than one would first think.

    Overall Jenny, how do think this scoring/time keeping system was; as a way of providing a challenging (yet not outright racing speed) competition format?

    thanks for your time... regards,

    Troy C.
  11. regie308

    regie308 Long timer

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    G'day there JMo, I watched your progress during the race and like everyone else has said "well done and cheers to you for a top effort".

    In your rally radio post's when you said: "you had the oil changed halfway through the event just to give the mechanic something to do" i laughed quite heartedly..... nice one. :1drink

    On ya! Jenny.
  12. Gian

    Gian dreamer

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    Many many compliments Jenny:clap ! To run an event like that it's only e dream for me so a piece of my heart was always with you during the race. Please only post a few more tales and photos when possible

    Gian

    :wave
  13. drc42

    drc42 Rally Dreamer

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    Oh great, now I am going to have THAT stuck in my head all day!

    Congrats Jenny, just finishing the race is a huge accomplishment, but to finish 4th! That is Superb!
    :clap
  14. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    Hi Regie - yes, I didn't want to jinks it half way through the event, but in comparison to the other bikes Desert Rose were looking after*, the Tenere needed no real nightly maintenance other than to check the tightness of bolts and spokes, change the air filter and keep an eye on the coolant and oil level - the oil did need topping up once or twice, but remember my engine has done over 32,000 miles now (over 51,000kms) and we were typically riding a number of 12 hour, 600-700km days during the rally...

    My Touratech roadbook did jam up twice early on in the event, so I replaced it with an MD unit (that everyone else in the whole rally world seems to use/prefer), and towards the end of the second week after a particularly long and harsh series of stages, the alloy bracket that I'd had cut to hold the GPS next to the IMO eventually cracked - fortunately I'd brought a spare so just swapped that over that evening.

    Also, (presumably) in one particular over-the-bars moment in the Mauritanian sand, I noticed the collar that holds the pin that locates the steering damper arm had come loose, and by the end of the stage had disappeared all together - allowing the pin to drop into the mounting post... again, all that was needed was to rectify that was to pull out the pin and put a spacer (bolt) below it to stop it dropping again.

    Otherwise the machine was utterly reliable - someone asked previously about the mpg during the rally - it's very hard to say as I wasn't paying that much attention to it, other than making sure I got the end of each special with enough fuel (there was one day I was running on fumes for 60+ miles after the low fuel light came on!).

    I'd say on the run down through Europe (on main roads at around 110-120kmh, so 65-75mph) it was averaging around 160-180 miles before the reserve light started flashing (but bare in mind with the revised gearing and 18 inch rear wheel, my bike speedo now over-reads by a good 10 mph at 70 mph). So lets say it's around 15% less mpg than bog standard, but when you consider the air-box/exhaust and PCV mods I've done, still pretty acceptable.

    On some of the slower stages, I was pleased to see the fuel gauge not start flashing until 180-200 miles, but if you were throttle happy (which is was hard not to be in those circumstances) it would drop as low as 140-160 miles before the fuel gauge started flashing. However, do remember there is still almost a third of a tank left when the gauge starts to show reserve.



    *As for the other bikes in the team, these were all KTMs - Clive was on a 525, Dan a Meca'system 530, Nick (and later Bertus) on a 625/640 Enduro, Chris on a 660RR and Helly on a 690RR - pretty much the whole range of rally KTMs then!

    Helly's 690RR was utterly reliable, but then it ought to have been as it was brand new and he had a dedicated mechainic (Christian) who worked long hours ensuring it looked in top condition at the start of each day.

    Helly's team mate Chris had bought a low mileage/hours 660RR which was also kept in top condition, although Chris had a couple of days where he suffered electrical gremlins (traced eventually to a faulty E-track unit causing a short-circuit and draining the battery) and he also missed one day when the bike refused to start at the beginning of a special.

    The 625 kept on going, although on one day also refused to start halfway through a special so Bertus had to be recovered by the sweep truck - turns out all the problem was was a loose earth connection...

    Similarly, Clive had no mechanical issues with his 525 - 'keeping it simple stupid' seems to pay dividends on a marathon distance rally like this... and more impressive since the engine and frame on Clive's bike were the same parts Patsy used when she finally finished the Dakar in 2006!

    Dan's Meca'system 530 on the other hand had no end of troube during the event - most nights it was in pieces into the small hours... Admittedly Dan has used that bike hard over this season already, and Patsy and Zippy kept it running right up until a couple of days before the end when it finally expired with ignition problems, despite changing virtually every component in an effort to get it running again... hell, they even managed to strip the engine and fit a new cam-chain halfway through the rally by blagging the necessary parts from the 2nd Desert Rose assistance team who were on the Rally Du Maroc when we crossed paths near Zagora that first week in Africa!

    It truly is another world!

    xxx
  15. regie308

    regie308 Long timer

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    With the other blokes bikes needing all that attention, I hope you took the time to rub it into them in that good o'l sporting manner.....:D

    I know australia has it's finke desert race and a safari race which we don't seem to get much/if any coverage at all on our tv's here when these events are held. :huh but i wish Australia would hold a HUGE Rally similar to the length of Dakar, something like: Starting from the east coast "byron bay", up to the north tip "cape york" then down accross the middle - ayers rock and other in-land icons like the bungle bungles then down and over to the west coast for a sunset finish in Fremantle "Perth". Then it may have to be opposite way as the sand dunes in the middle get blown from the west therefore passing them would prob. need to be from west aswell.

    Then i suppose because australia is down here all alone it would be costly for teams from all over the world to get here. (no border crossings to worry about though once in the country) :evil but in saying this, the safari race this year, there where some international teams competing and they want to return for 2010. so maybe we need to make the oz safari bigger.

    But it would be a wicked race though to zig-zag across this whole continent.

    cheers
    reg.
  16. G-Funk

    G-Funk That ... Umm ..... "Dude"

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    I could not have said it better myself ...... that's damn near poetry, eh .... :nod

    G.
  17. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    That sounds like a great idea Regie! but as you say, I guess the logistics of getting international teams all the way to Australia would be the main stumbling block (and your quarantine laws regarding vehicle imports - some of those rally bikes are a bit grubby x)

    I for one would love to come to Aus and race in a serious long-distance event like that... and perhaps if ASO continue with their 'Dakar Series' a Australian event could one day be on the cards?

    In the meantime - what is the feasibility of a company/companies providing the option of rental bikes/support packages for riders would would be prepared to fly in and use locally sourced machines? And perhaps dealers/importers might be able to offer something too?

    J xx
  18. PackMule

    PackMule love what you do

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    Contact inmate SafariBerg -- his Husaberg Rallye team does fly-n-ride packages for the AUS events. :thumb
  19. atgreg

    atgreg Africatwinarama

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    Jenny,

    Condo 750 2 day Easter 2010

    Oz Safari September 2010
  20. SafariBerg

    SafariBerg Oz Safari Addict

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    already happens, we get riders from USA, UK, UAE, Sweden, Japan, Germany, South Africa etc etc coming over for the Safari


    both Casey McCoy and Jonah Street have been over and used rentals


    see rental providers here

    http://www.australasiansafari.com.au/2009/Services.html#Comp