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Discussion in 'Moto Bellissima: All Other Dualsports' started by 805gregg, Apr 12, 2006.
And it seemes to run too, this English bike John will do a report later on.
So here it is at last, the visit to Johan in Sweden where he fitted the twin inlet system he has developed. Over the last few months he has fabricated an inlet manifold, control linkage and a map for the old ecu from his MkIII system. I have purchased the 45mm short throttle bodies and the hardware and software for the mapping of the later ecu. So as you can see I have just provided some equipment and Snakey the brains and expertese.
Waiting on the Dock at Immingham 3.30am waiting for the ferry to Gothenburg
The seat, tank, subframe, top tube and single inlet removed
New manifold and throttle bodies offered to cylinders. Perfect fit.
Boddies sit above the line of the top tube. Whoops a little miscalculation here
The tank and subframe ready for clearance test
Side panel in place showing good clearance for air filter connection pipes
Snakey having a brew - it's hot here in Sweden
Tank offered to position, some space required here but no a problem. Note the machined alloy tube connectors in place and finally the tubes themselves
Just a little warming and remolding of the plastic tank material. Warm it, move it, then cool it in position with copious quantities of cold water
Tank clearance now fine
more to come
Now a modified top frame tube offered to fit, still some clearance issues
The original and modified frame tubes compared (the original the wider)
So over to Snakey's friend (also Johan another top bloke) who cuts a section away, reverses it and weldsback into the top tube. Then pressure tested for leakage
More checking for clearance. A little off the side tubes and a washer packing give more than enough clearance. Any engine part touching the frame here will give significant vibration
Good clearance now
Just a little fettling on the bodies
more to come
And now to the the most difficult and time consuming part of the build. Johan started with a custom made throttle lever
The whole throttle and cable assembly offered to position
and fitted to the first body
Second body and tube connectors fitted.
Throttle position sensor fitted, ecu, loom and battery connected. Ignition on and tps wires red and yellow set to round 0.65 volts
Snakey's existing map transfered manually to the later ecu version. These maps were not directly transferable. Now this job is done the map is easily upgraded and transfered in the future. The map is quite linear and is now the same for both cylinders quite unlike the original where attempts have been made to individually map every cell for each individual cylinder. And still it does not work. Are you thinking what I'm thinking
Now the connecting linkage fitted and best set for balance.
And now we connect the battery and place tank at the side with the fuel lines and pump connected. The moment of truth - I'm really nervous as you can see, Johan too but check the vid
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And now she runs. I just didn't believe it could run so well from the very start, no properly set tps at idle, no tb balance, and no developed map, just good judgement and fitting from Snakey - Superb!
Just after the start
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Now the throttles are balanced using a Morgan Carbtune (top piece of kit)
Next the wiring organised as best we can but the loom does not lend itself to a clean layout especially round the ecu and battery area but we do ensure there is no chafing or that there are any cables tight.
Lastly top frame tube, air filter and connections, tank and seat assembly
Finally the first road test
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So the result
The bike now starts first time. It will run and idle smoothly. I can use the bike for all purposes without being on a mission. Absolutely astounding, Johan has really delivered the goods - Thanks mate
test report to come
There ya go, custom twinnies
There's always that special feeling when starting up an engine after re-make or rebuild. However, Highlands are always pleasent to work with and so was John
Now John has got som fine tuning to do, as I havn't got a dyno during summer. It's just too busy during season.
Gonna continue with my own bike this weekend and next week, fingers crossed it'll be as nice as John's in startup
Snakey, the woodshed tuner
So now for those who are interested the rideouts in south west Sweden mostly within a triangle formed by Halmstat, Markaryd and Angleholm. That does not include the less interesting ride from Leeds to Immingham to catch the freight ferry to Gothenburg and then the motorway down to Falkenberg.
For those who do not want the long ride through the channel ports or the East Anglia to Denmark route, the Tor Line freight ferry is a good short cut. You have to take pot luck in getting the day you want but the convenience from Yorkshire to Sweden is unbeatable.
waiting for boarding instructions at Immingham
Met by Snakey on his new Aprilia Tuono Factory near Falkenberg then a brisk ride off the motorway through the countryside where he comprehensively demonstrated effortless wheelie skills (hooligan!)
Then round the smooth back roads to the family farm, gorgeous.
After the dual inlet conversion we went out for a trial and to see a mate Fred who has another Highland, the earlier carb model. We had a slight problem as a loose grub screw deprived the throttle linkage of connection for a short time -easily fixed
Fred with his tuned carb machine, note the 18-21 wheel size combination. The bike ran well with a big hit at the top end, nice bike Fred
Off for a spot of lunch, Fred on the Highland and Snakey on the Tuono before things got a bit mental. Still making sure nothing will fail
So to the performance of Johan's dual inlet system. The bike now can be used as any other for regular use. Before it was bad to start from cold (though it always did eventually) and was difficult to ride in town or anywhere where a gentle throttle was required. Only was really good when 'on a mission'. Now it starts first time when cold and idles smoothly. When running under light load now does not have the nervous disposition it had before. Power does not seem a lot different but delivery is much smoother and that can mask an increase. I do not want to try any full power tests until I have checked there are no weak areas in the map. Until I have the opportunity to data log with an air fuel ratio probe the bike will do just what I want for normal use both on and off road. Cruising to 3 figures on the motorway to doing sheep trails in the dales.
The following day a full day out trying a mixture of dirt and tar. Johan decides the Tuono is not the weapon of choice for the gravel so blaggs dad's GS (complete with Mortuary Boxes )
Superb well maintained dirt roads a real pleasure
and Swedish countryside
now to the seaside at Bastad where the competitors were warming up for the Swedish tennis open next week
Following the coast to find some grub
Old boy taking the sea air
This'll do nicely
It's nice by the sea in Sweden
Heading back inland
Snakey takes a breather
Everywhere looks good in the sunshine, we even managed to skirt round the thunderstorms
Picking up a new Lamda kit from the post office
Some more of the beautiful roads
Local churches with similar design
And finally after saying a big thank you to Snakey for his expertees and being a great host it was back to the ferry.
Was lucky enough to meet these great Swedish guys on their way to the Classic Scramble at Hookstone Park. I think it's Gloucestershire. They had a pair of Matchless and BSA Victor scramblers both heavily modified.
I was late on to the ferry (another story) and after roping up the bike and carrying my gear up 5 stories from the bottom freight deck I was pretty frazzled. First thing these guys did when they saw my bike gear was throw me a tinny. Some blokes have real quality, thanks to Goran, Soren and son.
It's amazing, you do all the checks then the bugger rights itself. As you know it is very difficult to understand a strange bike if you have nothing to compare it with. Highlands in their factory guise do not have a comparison.
A blocked injector can run weak with loads of backfiring and overheating but not necessarily massive consumption, just no go. Knackered injectors run sooty and don't usually heal up. Sorry I'm stumped.
Yep, it may be time to sell if it's running not too bad. It just depends on how much it stands you at and whether you can afford to keep this strange beast in parts, gas and tyres. Rest assured there is some potential in this bike, I just cannot believe that the factory didn't put together a mod similar to Snakey's. :dog
The improvement means I can use the bike anytime for all purposes (except posing with the Harley crowd 'cos it ain't pretty ) and we have not yet got the definitive map developed. I expect there are still significant improvements to come and this could also improve reliability.
I have to consider whether to remove the cat before I do the re-map. My goal is not the same as Johan's, I just want a fast, light and strong multi purpose machine that is more than a match for the big KTooMs, particularly off road. That's not much to ask is it. Johan just wants to wipe the floor with everything - he says his Highland Motard gets round the bends quicker than his Factory Tuono and lets face it that is pretty well state of the art. If he gets anything like the power he expects, there won't be much that could live with it on anything but straight roads. We'll just have to wait and see
There is obviously going to be some time overhead in this development but I expect there will be a way to go that suites most people with Highlands. Already there are requests coming in for dual inlet conversions, particularly in Sweden (quite a few Highlands there) but this conversion is not yet a straight bolt on as you can see. There is no reason though that in the not so distant future there could be something near, we've just got to keep Johan sweet.
How are you Motard riders dealing with the chain-tire interference with a 160 tire? Can a 150 tire be used on the 5" rim? I have used a block plane to shave rubber off the side of the tire, but that's a poor solution. What was Highland thinking to sell a bike like this?
Also, what motor oil are you using? I ride street only.
Look at the front sprocket. I put a piece of tube behind it so the sprocket gets further out from the engine. Mine does not interfere with the 160 tires.
150 can be used, wouldn't be an issue.
I use bike specified (wet clutch JASO-MA) 15w-50 fully synthetic only. Change every 2000k. Street ride only.
When racing, I change after each race-weekend.
If I space out the front sprocket, don't I need to space out the rear sprocket an equal amount in order to keep the chain aligned?
What brand of oil do you use? Do you think it matters?
Thanks for the info. I hope to be able to buy your dual throttle body intake conversion someday.
Swapping the spacer to the inside of the drive sprocket I reckon will do the job, however before you assume the accuracy of the chain line it would be sensible to measure it with a straight edge on the rear sprocket and see how good it is from stock.
Looking at my stack of used filters (cheap and easy to fit) don't know why I keep 'em, evidence I suppose, Oil changes work out about 2000 kilometers. Far too regular but the oil is always dirty after a change and there is usually a little swarf on the plug. Not enough to alarm but it is there, could be from the brutally abused (yet excellent) gear box. I use Motul 5100 fully synthetic 10-40 grade. Any motorcycle specific SG to SJ rated will do. Motorcycle specific for the in oil clutch, no molybdenum. Avoid any oil that claims improvement in fuel economy. To my mind brand is not important. The motor I had that failed had used Mobil 1 and a Texaco 'fully synthetic' to a higher spec than SJ. After strip down the motor was really clean and cams and buckets were mint. I think there was a crankshaft fault. The persieved wisdom being don't lug the motor - rev the nuts of it and it will be ok. Sadly I like the torque characteristics. Lastly sometimes you may experience clutch slip. This will be from lack of use. I have had this on 2 occasions yet after some fairly agressive riding it went away and then took full power easily.
Lastly your comment about sending out a bike from the factory with the faults that we know. It is so frustrating spending your cash on something that is not to standard. I would say however that all manufacturers I have bought new from have had massive failings that were just not dealt with properly, from Honda with their original chocolate cam V4, Kawasaki carb icing to BMW corrosion, can bus and drive train failures. Highland have produced something unique. Sadly fatally flawed from a commercial point of view but in the long term for a motorcycle enthusiast a very interesting and exciting machine that we can take forward ourselves.
It will be interesting to see what does become of our attempts to make it work well. Even with the dual inlet mod I now take it out with greater confidence in town or heavy traffic. Yesterday afternoon a ride to friends near Scarborough, Some 160 miles in total, with a mixture of motorway, A roads and tight bad surfaced tracks. Playing with the sports bikes on the A roads up to 110 (pretty much top speed sat up with screen) and getting on well everywhere else. Great performance and returned just over 40 mpg imperial, not at all bad for those sort of speeds I think. Had to put on the waterproofs for the last 25 miles though. A great ride.
On my bike, the chaign align "better" after spacing out the sprocket. I can't say for sure that it's the same for yours, but as my don't interfere with the tyre, why should yours..
I use a Q8 SBK racing oil, fully synthetic 15w-50. I don't think it matters as long as it's an Jaso-specific oil.
But stay the he.... away from Castrol GPS, it bound to make your clutch slip. (happend on about 10 bikes for me, different types and brands....)
after your query about removing the cat I took the cans apart tonight. Drilled out the rivets at the engine end and struggled to get the centre out using a wood mallet on the footrest support lug.
Some close ups of the inner pipe
As Robert mentioned the cat is difficult to get at being fixed in the entry to the silencer body. It totally blocks the entry to the can, in my mind totally strangling the throughflow. I'll chop them out when I find someone to tack it back together (it's appears to be stainless steel).
Put some spare pipes on and had a ride out pushing up in the rev band - I thought it was probably the limiter that was stopping it going past 8000rpm, I now think it must be the restrictions caused by the cats (the rev limiter is now set to 9500rpm). Rinsed off the flies and gunk from the last 2 weeks and just had to take a pic. She seems to be getting more use now
John, considering how much beating it took to get the muffler apart, how do you think you're going to get it back together? That's when I decided to go with different mufflers.
After about 500 miles of running good, my Motard reverted to it's poor running ways. When I told Marcel about it's transformation (from bad to good), he suggested it might be a bad sensor, which he said would be hard to diagnose.
I'm thinking he's right and that it might be the temp sensor because of the increased fuel consumption. I don't even have a wiring diagram, so I don't know what sensors exist.
Cats are for rats
Nice to hear you get on the bike more often now
Snakey says check the TPS .65 volts at cloesd throttle between red and yellow wires
To quote Snakey
<DIR>My FIRST bet is the TPS, no question about it
tell him to measure the values between was it red n yellow? You know, like we did on yours to calibrate it.
engine running, different throttle openings
had the same problem on one bike, faulty TPS.
Second bike, faulty ECU. The DC-DC converter feeding the TPS was knocked..
</DIR>same result though, crazy tps values, mad fueling, useless running
Thanks for investigating the mufflers john
mmm seems the cat is quite long, it is perfarated though pitty ya carn't just knock the inside out of it.
I was thinking welding a straight non perferated section in and offsetting the extra noise with db dawg inserts but that cat is pretty long.
If you find a solution before 25th August could you get a couple of sets done, i could post cash from here and change over my new standard ones with you on the way to the boat.
Think of the good karma !!
Do you have exhaust outlet size so i can order inserts ?
That silver highland looks nice
All the best
Some pictures of Grant's bike in process at Overland solutions in Kent.
Looks like some pretty serious kit
Fabricated rack and boxes
Screen before the dash is populated
Twin headlights and fairing link to plastics
Loads of toys
Can't wait for a ride report :eek1