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Highway Dirt Bike (HDB) top clamp and handguards

Discussion in 'Equipment' started by Chadx, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. JDLuke

    JDLuke Ravening for delight

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    OK, not certain, but this jumps out at me: Typically a switch is not designed to connect power (which you've sent to both low and high terminals) to ground (which you've connected to the common terminal). To me, as soon as you throw a switch in this setup you've got an automatic short.

    What you want is this:

    power - center terminal on switch
    high terminal - to accessory 1 power
    low terminal - to accessory 2 power

    Ground from battery to chassis and to the other terminal on each accessory.

    An example of what should be a working circuit:
    GROUND---BATTERY---FUSE---SWITCH CENTER---HIGH TERMINAL---LIGHT---GROUND

    The switch should not be involved in the ground at all.

    If it helps, think of the wires as pipes, switches as valves, and lights as turbines. Ask yourself if the water will flow to the turbine or just go back to the pool.
    #81
  2. DiscoDino

    DiscoDino Long timer

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    Thanks for the info guys...Yes, seems that the switch should only receive positive power and no ground...

    So what seems to be the verdict is:

    Battery
    +ive > switch in two (one for H, one for L) > each one to the respective light on the LED, and then converge to the Powerlet positive
    -ve > Powerlet negative > LED negative

    Is that the census? I PMed Chad and Bash for more clarity as they used the same switches...

    Cheers,
    Nadim
    #82
  3. JDLuke

    JDLuke Ravening for delight

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    If you want the LEDs to remain on whenever the powerlet is active, as opposed to when you have some accessory plugged into it, you should run the LEDs in parallel with them. That is, instead of having current go through the LED and then through the powerlet to get a path to ground, you'd have power fed to each, side by side, each having it's own ground path.

    That's horribly confusing, so I drew it. This diagram assumes using one switch to control both powerlets, one is active when switch is in 'low', the other is active when the switch is on 'high'. I'm not certain exactly what you're trying to accomplish, so I made an assumption or three. I also left out fuse(s), which should be at *least* on the leg from the battery to the switch, and it wouldn't really hurt to fuse each powerlet separately as well.

    [​IMG]
    #83
  4. DiscoDino

    DiscoDino Long timer

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    Something like this?

    (I have two independent circuits, the red dots are the LEDs, the green lines pertain to the green light the "low" setting should get from the LED, and the red lines are for the red light when in "High")

    Attached Files:

    #84
  5. JDLuke

    JDLuke Ravening for delight

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    Looks like should work, although I'm puzzled as to the function of the switches in this setup. They're basically just acting as on/off switches with color choice?
    #85
  6. DiscoDino

    DiscoDino Long timer

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    Reason why I have the switches is to provide two levels of power/heat...no? High and Low...or do I need a missing part for that?
    #86
  7. JDLuke

    JDLuke Ravening for delight

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    I don't imagine that the switch is actually changing the current going through it for high/low, those are just labels for what should be a fairly generic single-pole double-throw switch. All that fancy talk just means that yes, you're missing a part.

    You need to think about what 'high' and 'low' mean for your application. A typical powerlet installation will provide roughly 12 volts (battery/charging system voltage) and as much power as whatever you plug into it tries to draw, up to whatever limit is set by your fuse (or worse, wiring). There's no inherent concept of 'high' or 'low' power in a motorcycle's electrical system, and no difference in what would be coming out of the 'low' and 'high' switch terminals.
    #87
  8. DRONE

    DRONE Dog Chauffeur

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    To repeat what JDLuke said, with your setup the amount of power going to your Powerlet will be exactly the same if the switch is in the High or in the Low position.

    JDLuke's diagram for how to wire up the LED's looks correct too. Also, I'm not sure what kind of LED's you have there, but they need to be rated to handle 12 volts. Many aren't or have resistors built-in to regulate the power.

    If you want to change the amount of power going to your heated clothing, you need to get a dedicated device to do that. Something like what Gerbing sells, or a Heatroller from Warm N safe.
    #88
  9. DiscoDino

    DiscoDino Long timer

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    Hmmm...I thought this H-Off-L switch would provide different amp settings. It comes from Symtec for their grip heaters and here's a diagram that Bash3r shared...

    [​IMG]
    #89
  10. JDLuke

    JDLuke Ravening for delight

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    In general, and particularly based on the 'or Metal Toggle Switch' which basically says you can use a generic component, I'd say no. It's all about the blue vs. the white wire. You could wire those up backwards and have the 'high' setting give low heat and vice versa. The switch is nothing more than a mechanism for routing power to the desired circuit.
    #90
  11. DiscoDino

    DiscoDino Long timer

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    OK...so is there a part that I can install between the switch and the socket to alter power between high and low? or should I scrap the whole top clamp and start fresh? (would hate to do that)

    Thanks
    #91
  12. dasvis

    dasvis Been here awhile

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    All a heater is is a resistor. I would guess that all the high/low switch does is redirect the power to a different resistor grid in the grip heaters... one of the grids has more resistance than the other, making it hotter than the other.
    Simple.
    #92
  13. DRONE

    DRONE Dog Chauffeur

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    No. The current is either on or off. There's no such thing as high 12-volt power and low 12-volt power. But there are devices that can operate on "high" or "low" based on internal circuitry of the device. For instance, there are tail light bulbs that come on with power but will burn brighter when you apply the brakes.

    This is starting to get lengthy, though. Wonder if you can take this offline with JDLuke who seems to have a good handle on it. Or me, though my handle ain't as good as his.
    #93
  14. K7MDL

    K7MDL 2015 Tiger 800XCx

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    This drawing will not work right. Reason is the LED green and red terminals are shorted together on the powerlet terminal which also shorts the hi and lo sides of the switch together.

    You want each side of the switch to go to an individual load. In the Symtec case it has different resistance (length) elements to produce more or less heat. Other kits use a resistor to dump load (convert to heat, but away from the hand grips) for low heat setting.

    The powerlet should be connected to the fused battery supply to the switch and they will be always on. The hi and lo terminals of the switch should go to the hi and lo connections of the hand grips. The red LED wire should go to the hi side terminal and the green LED wire to the low side of the switch so these are in parallel with the grip heaters. If you want to switch each powerlet you need another switch. With 2 switches, one controls the grip heaters, the other switches one or both powerlets. You might wire one always on, the second outlet switched.

    The LEDs need to be the 12V type with built in dropping resistors. Else you will have to add your own resistors of the right value to limit the current to the spec (typically 10-20ma).

    Also in the Symtec example, you could add a 12V LED between the blue wire and ground, and another between the white wire and ground to show when one of them is ON. Tap off the Red/Yellow power supply to feed your powerlets. Conside the proper fuse rating for the loads you want. Remember the fuse is close to the battery to protect the wire run from too much current and burning up or melting its insulation if too much load or a short happened in the wire harness. If you had your grip heaters on, and both powerlet loads on all at once, would the wire size and fuse size hold up? If not then you need dedicated runs of fused power for each load.

    A GPS draws very little power so no worries there. But an air compressor is a lot of current. Not likely you will use that when the grip heaters are on though. It comes down to what you plan to plug into the powerlets and when they will be connected and on.
    #94
  15. JDLuke

    JDLuke Ravening for delight

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    Good point! I didn't catch that. I think the net effect would be to light up both the green and the red LEDs whenever power is switched to either circuit.
    #95
  16. DiscoDino

    DiscoDino Long timer

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    Thanks for all your help guys...this thread is a wealth of knowledge and mishap (you're all welcome for the latter). I wired the thing yesterday in a simple circuit which works and will do for now until I come back from my long trip and figure another way to vary the temperature rating coming out of the sockets to my heated gear.

    As mentioned, will not continue to bastardize ChadX's thread...

    Cheers,
    Nadim
    #96
  17. Chadx

    Chadx my toot toot

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    Just caught up on this thread. One last comment in that you can not control heated gear with this type of high/low switch. A variable controller, for heated clothing, does not vary voltage, amps, or watts. It simply controls how long the power pulse lasts.

    When dialed to 100%, the circuit is powered 100% of the time. When dialed to 50%, the pulses are off and on an equal amount of time. etc. But each "on" pulse is drawing 100% of the amps it was designed to pull.

    Think of a toaster. You turn it on and it heats up, drawing 100% power and making 100% of the heat it is capable of making. Now, turn it on for 1 second, then off for 1 second, then on for 1 second, then off. Each time it was on, it was drawing 100% power. The fact that it was pulsing off then on means, though, that the toast was getting less heat than if you had left it on the whole time.

    A good explanation on the warm and safe site:
    "The Heat-Troller is a pulse-width modulated controller with a 1 second cycle time. That means that over a 1 second period, the power is turned on from about 10% to 100% of the time, adjustable with the knob on the controller. When the power is on, full power is applied to the load. In the example given, if the heated grip are 16 Watts each and the Heat-Troller is adjusted to 50%, the grips will get 16 Watts for half a second, then no power for half a second, giving an average of 8 Watts of power."
    #97
  18. DiscoDino

    DiscoDino Long timer

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    Still confused re: the damn switch, but for now (as we had to ship the bikes Saturday so needed to get stuff done) the switches work in a single throw, and Paul came through BIG TIME: he sent me a pair of 5mm LED plastic holders...they guy is beyond belief!

    Here are some pictures:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The installation:
    [​IMG]

    The way I'm routing the wires with the coiled extension for when I'm standing up on the pegs (if needed):
    [​IMG]

    Thinking of getting this and re-doing a top clamp to house:
    [​IMG]
    #98
  19. joenuclear

    joenuclear Still here....

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    #99
  20. 71tr

    71tr Been here awhile

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    The Hi-Lo switch in this diagram works because the Symtec heated grips have two seperate circuits running to them. It is not the switch which modulates the current but the number of elements in the grip heaters themselves. High switch goes to more abundant elements, Lo switch goes to fewer heating elements.

    Many less complex heated grip setups simply have a resistor wrapped around the Lo side circuit that converts part of the current to heat thus making it less powerful than the un-resisted High side circuit.

    As others have said, you are missing a resistor or modulating device to convert the full High power into a low power circuit. Without this the Hi-Lo switches are just on/off switches.