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Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by pinglow, Mar 18, 2015.
Mr. Honda passed , on August 5th 1991 .
My take from an old guy.
Great looking. headlight looks like a gas mask like the one the player in the recent draft was wearing with his bong. If it's a 250l, it is a loser with more weight. The 250 now needs about 10 more hp to handle it's heft. I have had a WR250. Also a wimp if you take to CO and 11-13k feet. Just too small a motor. A 350 or 400 in this would be a winner maybe. I also notice no adjusters on top of forks so unless production bikes are different, it might need fork and shock mods like the current 250L.
So if KTM would make a factory 350 model with about 3" shortened suspension, 3 to 3.5 gal tank, I would be all over it. At my age the heavy bikes are too to heft if I fall. So, I don't crash. KTM is the only light bike, but just too hard for me to get aboard as the old body is not flexible enough these days. Wait til you all get 70+.
So make this thing only 300 lbs, 350-400 motor. They would sell a bunch.
I think it will be a great bike, and you will have enough power for use in offroad
Of course, the question is how much lighter could you get a bike like this and still have it be sturdy enough for the intended purpose? As best as i can tell, CCM is the only company that has managed to produce at bike like this for mere mortals that weighs less than 300 pounds and they appear to have done it by utilizing a crazy high tech aluminum frame using aerospace fabrication and bonding technology. It also appears to cost an extra $2000-2500 retail to do that. If this Honda comes in a 340-350 lbs that will be 25-35 less than the CSC who praises many people have been singing on here. I suspect that Honda could get something like that done for less than $12K plus.
Honda can barely get an MX bike down to that weight (CRF250, not the 450) , never going to come remotely close to that with a pseudo-adventure 250.
So you haven't ridden a CRF250L then?
Butter fingers. Please read the revised post.
What should a small "rally bike" weigh compare to a "play" bike? Even with the trick frame, the CCM looks like weight 35-40 pounds more than the BMW G450X that birthed it. and the old BMW is not what I would call a featherweight. I know this is an extreme example, but the current KTM 450RR appears to weigh perhaps as much as 140 pounds more DRY than the regular 450 enduro model. It only gets worse when you load it up with another 37 liters of fuel weight. The earlier ones were at least 90-100 lbs heavier dry. Now we know that a Dakar race bike not only has to be able to handle 70 hp, but also thousands of miles of punishment. But those bikes also save weight wherever they can. A factory bike is not going to come with a super trick Akropovic titanium race exhaust and other such goodies. So what is a reasonable weight?
I was too quick. LOL. That is a great target weight but I don't think Honda can do it. Their 250L is 300+ pounds without any of the rally stuff.
One can only assume they want to capitalize on the 450 Dakar bike image? Or is there something I'm missing? They don't ACTUALLY want to build something you can race or even do spirited off-road with. The experienced riders want at least the same displacement as the real rally bikes. To build the real deal is big $$$ and it's a gamble. So they cheap out, make it 250cc and sell to all the noobs who are HP limited by their licence.
It's always the same thing in the end. The guys who really want something a lot closer to the 450 rally bikes will never get one unless they have it custom made or build it themselves.
What does a KTM 500 EXC or 350 EXC-F weigh with a rally fairing and large tank?
About 250 pounds before you put anything on it, right? The question is what more would you put on it? Just an empty fairing and a bigger tank? Perhaps a better question is what did the last of the 640 Adventures weigh? Its weight was 400 pounds plus wet as best as I can tell. So what would that mean? 360-370 dry? The current 690 Enduro weight around 310 dry, which is about 25 pounds less than the 640 it replaced. So you figured a 690 Adventure would weight in the 340-350 range, which seems to be where others are shooting for too, like the AJP PR7. I'm just guessing, mind you. The specs and alleged specs that I have seen for the small adventure bikes seem to indicate that although there is a range of dry weights anywhere for 275-280 pounds for the CCM to perhaps 460 wet for the opposed twin Benelli 502 ( it requires dual front discs) the "Goldilocks zone" seems to be that 325-375 pound range for now. Perhaps a better question for this discussion might be what the KTM 200 and 390 Adventure models might weigh? The 390 Duke weighs 306 lbs, and the rumors say that KTM had to come up with a beefier frame for the Adventure version, so it looks like it might be in that same weight class as its direct completion.
Another interesting possibility is that if they big it to our markets with the newer long stroke engine from the CB300, what is to say that a big big kit and fula management module like what is currently available wouldn't get you to that 350 cc 35 hp number? Of course the other burning question is how much tougher would it be to fit a 450 single into the frame considering someone managed to shoehorn the 500 twin into one, albeit with some cutting and welding?
Nothing, at least from the factory. I'll add my own accessories. I just want a fairing with a dash with room to customize and a tank large enough to get me about 200 miles.
So do you want a cardboard faux dash or one that you could actually mount something on? Who much would it cost you to convert the KTM into something that would suit your needs? I think that, if nothing else. this Honda has the potential to be a good canvas.
What you guys are asking for is this:
7.6 gallon fuel capacity. Zumo 665LM GPS with locking mount. Plenty of HP and just a hair shy of 300 pounds wet. Street legal and ready to ride. Anyone care to step up and make me an offer? Might not come across an opportunity like this again in your life...
Yes, that is what we want, but for $8000.
The compelling sell for the 250rally will be its' $6k price, 4.5 gallon tank, great wind protection, rally looks & go anywhere chops...yes it'd be underpowered for many NA folks, but I think it'd handle any terrain you'd throw at it.
That and the fact that you will have more of your farklebucks to spend on what appear to be readily available engine and suspension performance parts if you so desire as you won't have to buy a bunch of plastic right out of the box. If this little bike ends up coming to our side of the pond with the upgraded 300cc engine from the CBR more the better. That would make it a pretty nice competitor for the much rumored Indian built KTM 390 and BMW 310.
4.5gal tank, where did that info come from? I dont think thats very likely, 10 liters was mentioned in early concept stages officially. I'll be getting KLX or CRFL by end of month and hope that in 2-3 years somebody makes 250-500cc twin dual sport with some touring capability. Suzuki GStrom 250, Kawasaki Versys 300, Yamaha 320 Tenere, Honda Dominator 500?.. maybe..
Benelli is bringing one out, but it appears to be pretty chubby. It will be interesting to see if Honda eventually releases something similar to the modded CBR500X that folks like Rally Raid are building, preferably with more modern USD forks. A interesting possibility would be a lightweight Mutistrada Enduro type bike using the 450cc air-oil cooled V twin from the Scrambler 62. It weighs 400 pounds MOL without any real changes to the 803 chassis.
As for the fuel capacity of the 250 Rally, I guess depends if those fairing "side skirts" hold any fuel like they do on the rally bikes or the replacement tanks from folks like Kit690. of course, if we see the 70 mpg from the "rally" version of that 250 engine, you won't need quite so much fuel. With that said, the aftermarket guys already make 12 liter MOL tanks for the L model so i am sure that they will chime if necessary