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How? R1150 double spark plugs engine dynamic ignition test by timing gun

Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by Matroskin, Jan 26, 2009.

  1. Matroskin

    Matroskin Been here awhile

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    I have 2004 BMW 1150RT. I know this forum about GS, but RT has the same engine as GS, and most GS folks do their own maintenance. I need technical advice.

    I suspect my timing is incorrect. I cannot check static timing at this point, because I have front crash bars' bracket which blocks front plastic cover. I tried to disconnect the bracket and remove cover - no luck. To remove bracket I need to disconnect exhaust pipes (and muffler) :eek1.

    So, may be I can start troubleshooting it "easy way" first :norton.

    Question: Did somebody do dynamic ignition test on this engine by timing gun?

    This how mine ignition timing looks like on slightly warm engine (1 bar on RID)

    1000 rpm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qYTabwwMXA

    1050 rpm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlJt9QueV9o

    1100 rpm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHTi6eojvn4

    1250 rpm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qbesvsn6x5k

    Comment: After cold start I cannot see timing tab at all in timing window (it is below lower edge of window), chock on - ~1500 RPM, the top end of the tab starts going up and become visible in the window).

    Is my timing way off - too advanced?

    I have some videos with timing on fully warmed up engine (5 bars on RID). I will post it later. The upper end of tab goes up ~ up to 1/2 in timing window at 1100 rpm. Keeps going up (retarding) up to ~1400 rpm and then goes down when rpms increase (advancing).
    #1
  2. Matroskin

    Matroskin Been here awhile

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    #2
  3. hogmolly

    hogmolly Dude

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    I haven't looked at all the videos but I have checked the timing on a R1150GS. I used the flywheel sight plug. At full advance, you get an S in the window (if memory serves). You get a few degrees at idle. My timing light has a variable trigger so I can measure the degrees by that.
    #3
  4. Matroskin

    Matroskin Been here awhile

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    When engine fully warmed up, I can see "S" mark in lower portion of the timing window (flywheel sight window near right throttle body). It disappears above 2500 rpm.

    Are you sure, "S" mark should be visible at full advance (~ 40 deg at highest rpm)?

    So, with your timing gun you can bring timing mark into the window by adjusting trigger timing? It is probably even gives RPM's an adv/retard readings in degrees too?

    I have very simple timing gun which triggers on spark plug pulse and shows only true timing.
    #4
  5. hogmolly

    hogmolly Dude

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    My manuals are at home (TX) and I'm in San Jose, CA. I will look to verify. The motronic has the advance curves and relies on the hall sensor aligned with TDC. If your bike runs fine and doesn't ping, I wouldn't worry too much. I remember reading here that someone figured out if you have the key on and rotate the engine, at TDC the hall sensor triggers the fuel pump or something like that. That person proposed using this to verify the hall sensor was aligned with TDC. You could try and look that up and give it a try.
    #5
  6. Matroskin

    Matroskin Been here awhile

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    Thanks, hogmolly. May be your manual has more information about Motronic - mine has 0 information on this subject.

    Bike runs better (more stable idling and sound) with cold engine.

    I read it - http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79207

    BMW procedure requires to use special tool ("black box") to set timing at TDC. I even made that "black box" - 2 LED, 2 resistors :lol3.

    To follow both procedures, I need to have access to crankshaft's pulley at front. I do not have it. Rotation by rear wheel is too jerky for this test.
    So, I need some way to verify if I really have offset timing. Test with a timing gun looks like an easy step.

    Surprisingly, not so many people tried it ....
    #6
  7. Craiger

    Craiger Been here awhile

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  8. JimVonBaden

    JimVonBaden "Cool" Aid! Supporter

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  9. Mr Head

    Mr Head Adventure Hippie Supporter

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    Pull the plastic cover at the back side of the head, and rotate the motor there, without spark plugs in place. This should get you the static measurement.

    I've done this both ways for mine. Seems fine. Still slight surge once in a while for me. Some fiddly warm-up issues based on what the weather is like. Still works.

    Might try different spark plugs sometime, when I remember to get some different.

    Poolside has the procedure posted in the wisdom section at the bottom of the page.

    EASY TIMING CHECK LINK
    #9
  10. Matroskin

    Matroskin Been here awhile

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    Good idea! Thanks!!! :clap

    It might give me small error, but should be accurate enough for fast test. Thanks again!
    #10
  11. Matroskin

    Matroskin Been here awhile

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    Without emotions it would be only 2-3 pages of technical information :D

    I read it already, but thank you for the link. It looks like my engine works WAY better, but it does not discourage me to make it work even better :wink:

    Relax folks, I just asking for technical advice, not emotions. I noticed GSspot forum has a lot of TECHNICAL information and knowledgeable people.

    PLEASE, do not start emotional talk :evil

    If I fix my (how I like it), would it benefit this community? :freaky
    #11
  12. MotoErik

    MotoErik like a kid in a candyshop

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    Apparantly, he doesn't want to do that. It's pretty easy to understand when you break the logic down:
    Him: My bike is broken
    Us: Ummm, nope.
    Him: Yuh-huh, totatlly broken
    Us: We don't think so, but start by tuning the motor THE RIGHT WAY
    Him: Nope. I don't want to set my timing, because it's too much work.
    #12
  13. hogmolly

    hogmolly Dude

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    That's a pretty clever link. I remember reading that before, kudos to Poolside.
    #13
  14. Matroskin

    Matroskin Been here awhile

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    MotoErik, I did not expect such negative feedback from you :eek1.

    Thanks to Mr Head for the idea how to rotate engine. I will check static timing that way. If it is off, and ONLY IF IT IS OFF, I will go for timing adjustment.
    Not because I am lazy or it is too much work. I do not have a garage, so everything should be back on the bike before dark :cry

    As I described BEFORE (several times), ON MY BIKE - to remove front plastic cover I need to remove head's exhaust pipes, muffler, front crash bar's bracket, replace faulty gear sensor (if I remove muffler), check/adjust alternator belt, modify crash bar bracket.

    I am surprised, nobody did dynamic ignition test.

    P.S. At this time I put "Sea Foam" into the gas tank and ride my bike to work as usual - I do maintenance on weekends only. So my bike is not broken now :D
    P.S.S. I will report my results on static ignition check.

    Still looking for information on dynamic ignition test.
    #14
  15. MotoErik

    MotoErik like a kid in a candyshop

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    Sorry dude.

    It seems like you're fishing for an answer that just isn't there though. You didn't get the answer you wanted in a 10+ page thread, so you started this one. Several people told you that your bike sounded normal, but you didn't accept that. IF there's something wrong with your bike, it 's probably just a little out of tune, but you don't want to do the procedures the way that BMW recommends, or even the shortcuts suggested here. You have about 70 posts about this same "problem" over the last month, people have tried to help, but you don't seem to listen. :baldy Your threads belong in Jo Momma.

    Your bike is fine.

    If it actually has a problem, fix it the right way or :stfu.

    I'm not reading these threads anymore.

    Best of luck.
    #15
  16. Matroskin

    Matroskin Been here awhile

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    Strange :eek1.

    This post has nothing to do with my 10+ page post at all, and some people still beating me up for that one. Why? I am asking specific question in this post.

    If nobody did any research on this subject or has any test results - OK. I posted my results. I am not "just talker".

    This is not a first time I ask something and nobody knows the answer. Experts, where are you??? Examples are below:

    No comments on this one

    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=417947

    Or this one

    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=420946

    If you do not know the subject - Fine! But, why does it need to make some comments, not related to the subject?

    I do not ask anybody to fix MY bike! OK? I do it myself. If you have some technical information to discuss or share, I appreciate it.
    If not - make "unrelated" comments in another thread.

    P.S. To MotoErik: I appreciate you time and advices you gave me. Thanks! But for some reason you joined "the pack"...
    #16
  17. Anorak

    Anorak Woolf Barnato Supporter

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    Are you familiar with Occam's Razor?
    #17
  18. Matroskin

    Matroskin Been here awhile

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    True... in general :D

    At my work (not related to motorcycles), I fix what others were unable to fix (manufacturers included). :lol3
    #18