How to wrap your F800GS in Carbon Fiber......

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by ebrabaek, Jul 26, 2010.

  1. xcountryfreak

    xcountryfreak n00b

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Oddometer:
    4
    Yes, it's Max HTE. I'm in Dallas, TX and the weather has been in the mid 70's low 80's lately. It has hasn't been very cool here at least not yet. At night it may get to the high 60's but while I was mixing and laying the CF it was usually around 75 F. The main problem is the epoxy running off. I can't get enough of it to stay on the fabric. And it seems to act differently on different days. Maybe that's the tamperature. Very frustrating. I'll try heating everything as you suggest and let you know. Thanks.
  2. runnin4melife

    runnin4melife Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Oddometer:
    806
    Location:
    "No shit when I was back at Bragg!!!"
    Are you mixing the ratios right? If you are off in this it will be runny/thick. I did a batch this morning and made it at 85F I have a heater set on the mix etc.. and work under a heat lamp (3 of them) so I can ensure I am at a steady temp. Once I start laying the CF down the temp under the lamps goes up (black) about 5-7 degrees and once I am done with the layout I move the lights closer and this gets it nice and steamy. How long are you mixing it before applying? I am not an expert like Erling but I have noticed with a steady temp and weight measured ratios I get a great mix that stays pretty close to where I want it but if you slather a lot on you will get run off. I got some today on a fork guard but I was filling in bubble gaps to finish it and will be sanding it down so no worries.
  3. xcountryfreak

    xcountryfreak n00b

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Oddometer:
    4
    Yes, I'm mixing it 4 to 1 as per the instructions. I allways mix until the color is uniform and the hardner is thouroughly mixed. I transfer from the first container to a second one half way through the mixing so no unmixed resin contaminates the batch.

    I did another test last night and used my heater and heat lamp to warm everything up. I set the resin and hardener on the heater (its a flameless hot water heater type) until they warmed up good before mixing. Then I did a small batch. I cut a fresh piece if carbon cloth from the roll and coated it top and bottom with the epoxy and let it sit under the light for a couple hours. I don't leave the heat lamp on over night due to fire concerns. When I checked it this morning, the cloth had set up but it was flexible because most of the epoxy had run off. It wasn't laid flat but was only at about a 5 degree angle. This is exactly what has happened in the past. I think that this is a bad batch of product. I'll see what the mfg says.
  4. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,663
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    I don't think so. A few things here. You never want any resin on top.
    The strength is from the cloth being saturated. Nothing good comes from pooled resin on top. It has no strength at all..... The saturated cloth does. The resin bonds it together. If it pools then the cloth is saturated, and excessive resin cannot go anywhere but on top. I appears to me that you are too high on resin. Remember I part resin in weight to two parts carbon fiber. Second stiffness is in added layers. If you just saturate a layer or two of fiber...... Then it will be flexible. Third you are curing this at 350 deg. F. For two hrs..... Yes......????? If yes..... How do you deforming this???
  5. xcountryfreak

    xcountryfreak n00b

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Oddometer:
    4
    No, you see I wasn't trying to make a part, I was just trying to verify that the problems I have been having with this resin running off wasn't because of temperature or contamination of the cloth or anything procedural. I have had multiple problems with this resin running off and not staying on the cloth when doing layups. But with this test I was just trying to see if it would still run off even if the resin was heated, the environment was warm etc. I've been fooling with this HTE for several weeks now. I realize it needs a post cure but It needs to get past curing first. The test piece is almost as flexible as if it had never had epoxy on it. For post cure, I've been placing parts in a dark plastic bag and putting them in direct sunlight for 5 hours or more.

    Another example, the pipe guard I made had a small section of one layer of CF that had cured about a quarter inch away from the layers below it. I've tried painting on more epoxy and putting a clamp over it with clear plastic covering the clamp faces to glue it back down. When I take the clamp off after 10-15 hours, the CF just comes back up and does not stick to the layers below it. It's as if all the epoxy ran off. Also, if I try to fill voids or paint a coat on the sanded surface of the pipe guard to build it up, the epoxy will bead up over an hour or two and doesn't stay evenly spread on the surface. I have sanded the surface well and cleaned it with Acetone to prep it before applying the HTE.

    Have you been able to lay up parts that are curved, multi angular surfaces, not flat, without using vacuume bagging and not had problems with the HTE running off the cloth?

    I hope this makes sense. Thanks for your help.
  6. runnin4melife

    runnin4melife Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2012
    Oddometer:
    806
    Location:
    "No shit when I was back at Bragg!!!"
    Again I am a novice, I am using this:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN...=WDVW&rd=1&ih=021&category=66914&cmd=ViewItem

    I am having no problem w/it at all, the only issue I am having is that it is slowly eroding my life because I keep spending hours out in the garage.

    I did a fork guard today 5 layers applied to an aluminum template. I had the mix prepped at 85F and the template was 95F after the paraffin had dried. I applied one coat of the resin and let it sit for 5 mins and then I brushed a little bit more on there to ensure I had enough to saturate the first layer of cloth. After this point I began applying resin then epoxy with no problems. The carbon fiber soaks up the resin almost instantaneously so I have no idea what is going on in regards to your situation. Maybe Erling can help but I cannot discern what is occurring because the cloth should absorb the resin. Once cured it should be stiff but one piece of cloth won't be too strong. You have to laminate the layers... Only thing I could suggest is videoing what you are doing and post it and then we might see what is going on.
  7. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,663
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    Xc..... It is not that complicated. You are doing something wrong. At this point I suggest you study the videos on the manufactures website. The resin works. If you can mix it, th resin can soak it up..... Simple as that.
    You cannot reload a layup after it is made...... As the fabric is now sealed.
  8. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,663
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    OK I got back home, thus have a real keyboard in front of me. I feel in this case you need to start from scratch, as several perspectives you have offered is in clear violation of the working of these polymers. That may sound simple, but I guess in simpler terms...... You need to study how this works.....from scratch. So I offer the following..... You have two components in a lay up..... One is carbon fiber cloth, the other an adhesive of some kind.... In this case ...epoxy. Epoxy only offers torsional stiffness in heavy set's...ie. thick hockey puck type set. The carbon after being saturated offers this, and the thicker the stiffer. So when you mention...

    " At night it may get to the high 60's but while I was mixing and laying the CF it was usually around 75 F. The main problem is the epoxy running off. I can't get enough of it to stay on the fabric. And it seems to act differently on different days. "
    That is the cause, for your bubbles......and.....second... You have way too much resin in there.

    Second....

    "Then I did a small batch. I cut a fresh piece if carbon cloth from the roll and coated it top and bottom with the epoxy and let it sit under the light for a couple hours. I don't leave the heat lamp on over night due to fire concerns. When I checked it this morning, the cloth had set up but it was flexible because most of the epoxy had run off."

    It will off course run off..... Just as a soaked rag when.......ehhhh... soaked cannot absorb more water, it simply runs off. Reason for it to be flexible is the " a piece of carbon" part..... one layer, presumably 6 oz weight is very thin, which is why we lay up several layers, like in the case of my skid plate... 8-9 layers..... etc. one layer will be very flexible.

    It seems like you need to work a few fundamentals here, as it could just be a misunderstanding of what you thought the composite would do, and what it really will do......
    Try the following, as a test. Cut 5 layers of 5 inch carbon squares....... weigh them..... if they weigh 30 grams..... then mix 10 grams of total resin....... and that is the weight to resin ratio. Perhaps as a safety factor add 5 grams of resin for spillage..... Then mix the resin after heated up to 90 deg.... Use a IR heat gun.... Do not guess. Then as in my many videos, lay it all up. If you run out of resin at the 3'rd or 4'th layer, then you have misjudged the ratios needed, and need to work on resin control. if you are able to lay up all 5 layers,,,,then let it cure at 2 hrs at 300 deg. F. after curing...... do the layers stick together.....????? In summery, I think you have just misunderstood that the fiber have not saturated, as resin is now pooling...... I think that if you try this, you will find it better. And...lastly, you cannot add epoxy after sanding....well you can....but it will just run off, as the matrix is now sealed by the prior cure. Try this, and report back, but please be specific checking the steps I stated, as we are here to check what you have going. Buy an IR gun if you do not have one.....:freaky:clap:clap
  9. WF_Jester

    WF_Jester n00b

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Oddometer:
    360
    Location:
    Wichita Falls, TX
    My first try was a complete disaster. I am pretty sure the resin was to old what is the shelf life on that stuff?
  10. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,663
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    Uhhhmmm... Ok.... Bad start ehhh.... :D First thing first.... What resin.... Type....??? poly, or epoxy.... what brand...???
    Mix ratio.... A little back ground of what you did.... as thousand things can mess you up. The stuff I use, is good for 24 monts.... and then some. Baby steps... Whatdidyado...????:D
  11. WF_Jester

    WF_Jester n00b

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Oddometer:
    360
    Location:
    Wichita Falls, TX
    Silmar 249 poly used 4oz of resin (maybe a bit more) to 1/8 oz of MEK. The resin came out of the can VERY VERY thick almost like a gel. I have had it for over a year and I was worried when I saw how thick it was but decided to plow ahead. It started hardening almost instantly did not even have a chance to put a layer on top of the first layer of carbon. It had already become very stiff like a gel. Out side temp was around 80 degrees I stirred it for about minute pretty rapidly to get a good mix was that the right thing to do?

  12. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,663
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    That is a 5% mix, which is about twice as much needed. In the winter, you can boost it by going to 4-6%, but the 249 should yield a 10-15 minute gel time at 2%, so with a little over twice the hardener, I'd say 5-7 minutes ( from the begin of the mixing) The 249 is a great clear resin. I think one of the best on the market. I have never seen it gel in the can, but I have never kept it over 12 months either. The gelling, I suspect has nothing to do, but in the summer temps, you really need no more than the 2%. The 249's gell set is rather abrupt. Meaning, once the gell begins, it's gelling, and setting. As with any projects.... try a little test mix. ( try 2%) and time it, to know what you have going, as temperature does vary this. If you are going with other resins, may I recommend the 1618 or max clr epoxy's that I use now. World of a difference. Most importantly.... Do not give up. There is light at the end of the tunnel..... and it is not a freight train .....:D:D
  13. WF_Jester

    WF_Jester n00b

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Oddometer:
    360
    Location:
    Wichita Falls, TX
    I know there are never any easy answers but is epoxy easier to work with than poly?
  14. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,663
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    Yes, by far. But if you want to try what you have, then test back it @ 2%..... see what time you have. That is of course unless it is too gelled to get a good mix, then it is a throw out.
  15. WF_Jester

    WF_Jester n00b

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Oddometer:
    360
    Location:
    Wichita Falls, TX
    OK I figured out what I did I miss read the instructions and use the ratio for surfacing wax not hardener :norton. I tried a test of like you suggeted. Here is a picture of the results after about 1 minute. That was a mix of 1.5 oz of resin and 10 drops of MEK (that is what was on the instructions for hardener for 1oz.

    [​IMG]

    I have a video of what it look like too but have not figured out how to post those here yet. If you want to see it let me know.


  16. WF_Jester

    WF_Jester n00b

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Oddometer:
    360
    Location:
    Wichita Falls, TX
    Here is the video let me know if you think that is to thick that was about 2 minutes after adding the MEK.

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ujuUzZtD_hU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
  17. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,663
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    Wow...... I have not see this before, but for sure, it it past it's shelf life. You will never be able to saturate the fibers with it gelling like that. Sorry, but that is unusable. Best thing is to get your hands on either new 249, or as I would suggest, switch to epoxy with either Max clr hp, or the 1618. There are many epoxys out there, some better than others, so be careful about just running to your local boat dealer, and buy a gallon.
  18. WF_Jester

    WF_Jester n00b

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2009
    Oddometer:
    360
    Location:
    Wichita Falls, TX
    Erlin,


    About to buy some more supplies. Just because I am a gluten for punishment I am going to get a pint of the 249 poly to play.

    My question about resin today is the place that I am buying from does not sell the Max Clr or 1628. They do sell Some West Systems 105 and US Composites 635 which one would you suggest or would you suggest neither?

    As far as layup what is the first layer carbon fiber or resin?
  19. ebrabaek

    ebrabaek Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    5,663
    Location:
    Grand Valley, Colorado
    It has been a long time since I worked with the West systems. If memory serves me correct, then back 6 or so years ago they were not very clear, as west applications are, or should I say, they started, for the marine industry, where everything is painted anyway. I did not like how the resin held up to UV bombardment, so if you end up using it, be sure to give it a coat of uv resistant lacquer. You always use resin, then fabric, so that when you messaged in the cloth, you effectively, or mechanically presses the resin through the fibers, ensuring a good wet in process. If you do it the other way around, you will have voids, as it is hard to now force the resin in all the voids underneath the cloth. Dont be afraid of mail order of good epoxy though. That said, play with the 249, before going at it, as it has a very abrupt gel over. :clap:clap
  20. speed_racer

    speed_racer Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2011
    Oddometer:
    718
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Hey Mate, I think you moved your photos to a different bucket or something from the first page as they are no longer available..

    I would love to see your work?