If Loud Pipes Save Lives, then.....

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by TheProphet, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Chickenstrip

    Chickenstrip Long timer

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    Here in NYC there is a growing population of delivery riders on electric bikes. They often ride faster than cars drive, and in between moving & parked cars. They are quiet and fast. I don't have stats but it wouldn't surprise me if they have, perhaps cause, more accidents than standard bicycles. There was a recent 'crackdown' on throttle driven bikes (as opposed to pedal assist designs) - I don't know the differences - was this motivated by statistics, fear, or both?
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  2. Peels

    Peels Long timer

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    Hold up.... I didnt say it translates directly. Thats impossible. I said, generally. as in will be more likely because they are More serious about the hobby. Probably just opinion... but ill stand by it. definitely stand by the focus part. Hot out, this week, open visor before a turn, took a june bug to the face, splattered on cheek into eye...I was very temporarily distracted. Not good. But you're correct. gear isn't the point.

    noise is.

    At speed, there's little difference that would help you. Maybe blind corner, or intersection, with no other noise at all. Like a farm road.

    If I just go by my experience .... (Ever heard a BMW boxer stock? its a sewing machine-and I love it) Iv'e had people walk out in front of me or cars back out. Iv'e Yet to experience a situation on the road where noise from the back of the bike would help me. In a grocery store parking lot. yes. But no injury would have happened there, and I ride accordingly.

    as far as horns go.... i think mandating the la cucaracha horn, or maybe the duke boys, would be the best. :photog
    #22
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  3. ultrarnr

    ultrarnr Been here awhile

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    I have been riding electrics (Zero SR) for over four years now and don't see any difference. But having said that my DL650 and 1290 SA aren't exactly loud bikes with the factory exhaust.
    #23
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  4. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Just admit you like the sound of your motorcycle and stop trying to claim that "loud pipes save lives." -Revzilla

    Lol, even Revzilla is calling riders out on this one. In seriousness though, the NHTSA thinks that the danger of electric motorcycles is not so much to the rider, but rather, to pedestrians:

    “Whether or not a vehicle can be easily detected by the sound it makes is a product of vehicle type, vehicle speed, and ambient sound level. Quieter vehicles, such as EVs and HVs, can reduce pedestrians’ ability to assess the state of nearby traffic and, as a result, can have an impact on pedestrian safety. EVs and HVs may pose a safety problem for pedestrians, in particular pedestrians who are blind or visually impaired and who therefore rely on auditory cues from vehicles to navigate. For these pedestrians, the primary safety issue arises when an HV or EV operates quietly using its electric motor for propulsion at low speeds. This is also the case when other auditory cues, such as the noise from the vehicle’s tires and wind resistance, are less noticeable.” -NHTSA

    You can read the NHTSA’s full analysis by opening this PDF. You can also listen to a sampling of recordings suggested by the NHTSA for use on electric vehicles when traveling at low speeds here.

    In Europe, one clever solution was implemented to resolve this issue, as seen by the video below. :ear

    #24
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  5. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    The old-model (not same as the same-looking model sold today, since Delta bought the original company) Air Zounds air horn with its original lower pitch saved my life once a month when I was on ebikes.

    It works subliminally. Most drivers hit the brakes by reflex from the old Air Zounds. Funny to see cagers "stunned".

    In my experience, the new Air Zounds doesn't have the same "phaser" stun effect.
    #25
  6. Peels

    Peels Long timer

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    is that real? LOL that would annoy me to no end. :lol3
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  7. TheProphet

    TheProphet Retired; Living the Dream

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    Why would EV's - in this case motorbikes - traveling at slow speed be dangerous, and require artificial sound, but a bicycle is of no concern? I would think that the slight whine from the electric motor is certainly louder than the bicycles... zero sound?
    #27
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  8. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Good question. Hurts less to be hit by the average bicyclist maybe? I mean, I've never heard of a pedestrian being killed from being ran into by a bicycle. There's less mass to begin with and they are much easier to stop quickly.. additionally, the avg cyclist has little more than spandex, gloves, and a helmet for protection meaning they get almost as hurt as the person they may run into.. so guessing they might tend to ride more cautiously than your avg. motorcyclist.
    #28
  9. TheProphet

    TheProphet Retired; Living the Dream

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    Lets not forget about those blind and/or deaf pedestrians... how will they tell the difference?
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  10. Peels

    Peels Long timer

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    echolocation or swing their pole at em. :photog
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  11. TheProphet

    TheProphet Retired; Living the Dream

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    According to THIS v v v , 3 deaths, 106 seriously injured in 2016, by bicyclists in Great Britain.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...tally-seriously-injured-cyclists-has-doubled/

    As I was searching for info on bicycle/pedestrian mishaps, not one single incident around a motorcycle vs. pedestrian came up. Plenty of automobile vs. pedestrian incidents though.

    It would appear that as soon as you turn the riding instrument into a commercial fast delivery vehicle, the trouble starts. Perhaps THAT is where the safety police should be focusing. Treat the cause, not the symptom.
    #31
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  12. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    This topic has been so done to death. :dhorse

    FACT: ICE-powered luxury vehicles can be just as quiet in a parking lot as EVs. If you're going to say that EVs need to make noise to protect the handicapped, the same needs to be done for quiet ICE vehicles. It's not the motive power that's in question, it's the sound level that matters. I'm sure the Rolls/Jag/Mercedes clan will be fine with their cars making little squirgling noises in parking lots. Or maybe a soft "Hail to the Chief" or a properly stately and regal fanfare loop would be more appropriate.

    FACT: Go to a busy street corner and close your eyes. Do you hear engines? Maybe a little. A little more when cars are starting from rest, almost nothing when just driving past. The bulk of the noise you hear is tire noise. Again, luxury cars will be all tire noise.
    Interesting sub fact: Decades ago when I was racing, I went to the fence at practice on the banking at Daytona as the un-muffled TZ750s blasted by. As they approached, the only sound you could hear was the wind roar from their horrible aerodynamics.​

    FACT: If you're concerned about startling pedestrians in parking lots on your silent EM, put a bicycle bell on your handlebar. Small, cheap, effective, and will even get you the occasional smile.

    FACT: On EMs or ICE motorcycles, loud noises are just plain dumb.
    #32
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  13. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

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    WRT pizza delivery, by smell perhaps???
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  14. Strayarider

    Strayarider Been here awhile

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    Interesting and not an argument anyone is going to win because the variables, scenarios, personal beliefs and general lack of any specific requirement for the discussion makes it hard to define what the outcome is going to achieve.

    Someone made a good point about horns. In most western countries the horn should be used to warn others of danger. It doesn't get used for that, it gets used to abuse and harrass others. In Asia,Africa and Europe (maybe other places too), the horn gets used for the CORRECT purpose; Telling others that you are there. People don't get precious that you just alerted them to danger.

    So, ignore the pipes, use the horn for other people's safety and ours. Job done. Have as many or as few loud pipes as you like.

    I can say with some confidence though, that straight-through open headers cracking on a 60 degree v-twin sounds like sh*t in anyone's language. :kat

    Go horns ! :ricky
    #34
  15. foxtrapper

    foxtrapper Long timer

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    To get back to your original postulate @TheProphet , I do have some experience with problems with electric vehicles.

    The most direct that I'm familiar with would be the old B&D facility and when we converted to electric carts, retiring almost all the propane units. Pedestrian collisions increased substantially. No, I don't have numeric values. Regardless, it was quite clear that the lack of noise had people not noticing them coming up from behind, and not noticing them around corners and walking right in front of them.

    Mirrors were installed at all corners and intersections, as well signs everywhere. It helped, but didn't cure the problem. As I recall, something like cards in the spokes of bicycle wheels were installed. Regardless of what was done, the result was carts made noise while moving. Then the incidences dropped to next to nothing. The previously silent carts could be heard.

    I also see this at some of the big car shows, where electric carts invariably carry an empty soda can on a strong, so it clatters as the cart moves. Folk I know who use those carts use the rattle cans because it works. Otherwise, people constantly step out in front of them.

    People I know who operate electric cars do report increased pedestrian problems and are far more skittish of people because of this.

    Don't dispute the comments above about tire noise, but that only happens at higher speeds. In urban or industrial areas where vehicle speeds are lower, the noise is nill. It's also often drowned out by the background sounds.
    #35
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  16. TheProphet

    TheProphet Retired; Living the Dream

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    I see this at the airport all the time, where the concourse and gate Electric Golf Cart like Shuttles for handicapped folks are so quiet that they require Mars Lights and Beepers full time. Even with the audio and visual effects, they tend to sneak up behind you.

    Perhaps the EV Bikes could be programmed to transmit a legible sound automatically at say speeds of below 5 MPH??
    #36
  17. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    NHTSA Mandates Noisemakers on Hybrids, EVs

    By Fred Meier
    November 15, 2016
    [​IMG]

    After years of discussion, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has announced a rule requiring all new hybrid and electric vehicles be equipped with a recognizable noisemaking device to protect pedestrians.

    NHTSA says the rule will prevent about 2,400 pedestrian injuries per year when all hybrids are equipped with the noisemakers and particularly will help pedestrians with impaired vision.

    NHTSA calculates that the very quiet or sometimes silent hybrids are 1.18 times more likely than an internal combustion car to have a collision with a pedestrian and 1.51 times more likely to collide with a bicyclist. Such a requirement was mandated by a pedestrian safety bill signed into law in 2011; some of the first proposals were presented in 2013.

    "With more, quieter hybrid and electrical cars on the road, the ability for all pedestrians to hear as well as see the cars becomes an important factor of reducing the risk of possible crashes and improving safety," said U.S. Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx in a statement.

    The new standard says that all new four-wheeled hybrid and electric light vehicles must be equipped by Sept. 1, 2019, with a device that makes an audible noise when the car is moving forward or in Reverse up to about 19 mph (officially 30 kph).

    The assumption on speed is that vehicles going faster make enough tire and wind noise to be heard. The rule sets a range of technical requirements to ensure the sound is automatic and is both audible and recognizable for pedestrians. The full rule is available here.

    In addition to the 2019 deadline for all such cars, automakers must have half their applicable new vehicles in compliance by Sept. 1, 2018.


    https://www.cars.com/articles/nhtsa-mandates-noisemakers-on-hybrids-evs-1420692319517/

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_electric_vehicle

    3BBCCE55-F144-4DCC-9EE8-78D36441C16B.jpeg

    https://one.nhtsa.gov/Laws-&-Regulations/Vehicles
    #37
  18. minimac

    minimac Long timer

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    Don't penalize the idiots that don't look before walking into traffic...
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  19. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Idiots that don’t look before walking into traffic will be penalized in a different way.
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  20. MockSpeed

    MockSpeed Adventurer

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    Reminds me of the whistles that we had to have on all our cars in Kansas and Missouri to scare the deer away.

    People who don't look before crossing, should not be allowed to pass on their stupidity.
    #40