Interesting Moto Guzzi/Aprilia article

Discussion in 'Moto Bellissima: All Other Dualsports' started by John Ashman, Jun 11, 2017.

  1. Paul124ac

    Paul124ac Long timer

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    So sad, so many great motors going into the bin. You blokes are lucky in the States, at least it's only bikes-for now. We're having Euro compliant diesels forced on us which means everything has to use Ad-Blue, basically urea and water injected into the exhaust. Yep that's right, cow piss.
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  2. Sock Monkey

    Sock Monkey 99% bullshitter...the other 1% is just lies

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    ROFL. Maybe if you pull the motor out of the '09 it weighs that, but the "claimed" wet weight was 553lbs (which nobody believed....in reality it was likely closer to 600). The NTX that followed it weighed a hamburger shy of 600lbs with no fuel in the tank and they didn't add 100+lbs between the two models.
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  3. WitchCityBallabio

    WitchCityBallabio Guzzi weirdo

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    Right. 35 lbs of fuel give or take, say 7 lbs of engine oil, a couple of pounds or so of trans and drive oil, and battery fluids, fork oils etc, and that puts you right around the wet weight.

    The 09 dry weight was measured without the luggage and racks, crash bars, skid plates, aux lights etc. Just like everyone else does. The 09 also doesnt have ABS or Traction control modules. I suspect the newer model NTX's were weighed with all the gear on for their dry weight as they came from the factory set up that way and not as options.

    If you look at the dry weight of the V11 Sport for example, you'd see weights that are similar. In fact, rolling all the different models of Guzzis I own around the garage, with the exception of the V7, they all weigh pretty much the same. There's really nothing on the Stelvio component wise that is inherently heavier than any of the other models and Ive had them all apart. In fact, my Ambassador's 750 motor is much heavier with the 20 lb flywheel and multiplate clutch.The only thing that was heavier component wise on the Stelvio, was the muffler which with the cat con was close to 20 lbs. I replaced mine basically from the beginning with a 5 lb can.

    I can tell you, without question after riding the Ducati Enduro for example and comparison, the Stelvio (mine at least) is definitely lighter.
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  4. JNRobert

    JNRobert Breaking Wind

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    Mmm.... hasn't this topic come up before and someone posted actual evidence that the Stelvio was in the 650 lbs range. Even dry with no panniers attached it would be close to 600 lbs.

    I test rode the new Africa Twin and that felt 100 lbs lighter. Doesn't make it a better bike but it felt light particularly when I got back on my Stelvio. Just pushing the Guzzi around the garage it's no light weight so I'm sceptical of the less than 500lbs claim :dunno

    Edit: posts happened while I was writing the above :D
    #24
  5. bobw

    bobw Harden the phuck up

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    I'm back on a BMW because of the loss of our "good" area dealerships and driving to other states for even the simplest of warranty work made my final vote though I still check the great deals on Caponards and Stelvios. Having ridden laps around the lower 48 on both my Stelvio and futura with zero problems on what are two of my genuine favorite motorcycles for their fantastic riding experience and simple bullet proof nature (other than the "mandated" early ownership Italian quirks) it is critical for Piaggio to establish a stable and viable Importer-Dealership-Customer, Business Model. Euro 4 compliance is a hurdle for all the OEMs especially with the much beloved big twins, but I think as to low sales, again, Piaggio has NEVER offered anything resembling a dealer network at least in the U.S. and as much as I am am able to and enjoy working on my own bikes, but there are times relying only on Pete's advice on a forum (and a few other folks too) or being fortunate enough to be relatively close to one of the "Good" Guzzi shops is already like having 2 strikes against making a sale. KTM has it's share of issues as does BMW, but they do have at least a few more dealers and Name Recognition.
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  6. WitchCityBallabio

    WitchCityBallabio Guzzi weirdo

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    Well the AT is certainly 50-75 lbs lighter, which of course makes a big difference. I will estimate that the wet weight for my 09 is probably in the 550 range. The AT wet is 500 or so right? Makes sense to me. Not sure about the newer NTX's, but there's no way my 09 weighs 600-650. Maybe with a full luggage load for a trip. Maybe. Keep in mind, I lost about 15 lbs changing the exhaust can, so maybe that's the difference in weight feel.

    I've picked mine up a bunch off road without a tremendous amount of difficulty, and I'm not sure I could pick up 600-650 lbs. I rode the Ducati Enduro which lists as 560 lbs kerb (1/2 tank of fuel?) and I can tell you that absolutely it's heavier than my 09. I rode them back to back and was shocked at the weight difference. So someone is full of shit. Either the Ducati is a lot heavier than advertised, or my estimate on weight is about right.
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  7. Sock Monkey

    Sock Monkey 99% bullshitter...the other 1% is just lies

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    It has, and you're right, the actual wet weight of the first Stelvio was around 600lbs (the "claimed" wet weight of 553 was really the dry weight, and at least one web site caught that and has it correctly listed as such), and the newer NTX is around 650lbs (fully fueled, etc) due to its larger fuel tank, crash bars, aux lights, metal panniers, etc. :deal
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  8. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    To be fair, the NTX package is what brings it up to 600lbs and is reported to weigh "20kg" so nearly 50lbs. So everyone is more or less right to an extent. Just like there is a huge difference between the base 1200GS and the fully loaded one. I think the BMW is the only lighter shafty in the class. Which isn't saying much.
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  9. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    550lbs is close to 600 lbs, without being 600lbs.
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  10. HarveyMushman

    HarveyMushman Long timer Supporter

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    Anybody have a scale? :lol3
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  11. WitchCityBallabio

    WitchCityBallabio Guzzi weirdo

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    http://advrider.com/index.php?threa...vio-ntx-vs-2012-bmw-r1200gs-adventure.839568/

    616 for the NTX with about 5 gallons and all the gear (which is a full tank+ for my bike).

    I think once you do the math, you'll find that the dry weight isn't that far off for my 09. Not taking into account that the fairing and windshield are bigger on the NTX.

    Just roughly figuring...
    30 pounds of fuel
    8 pounds of oils
    5 pounds skidplate
    20 lbs for crash bars
    30 pounds for luggage
    10 pounds (abs, traction)

    And on top of that, I shed 15 lbs of exhaust.


    But whatever. I was making a point about the advertised dry weights and the myth that the Stelvio was so much heavier than any of the 1200 cc ADV bikes.
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  12. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    I don't know about "great motors". A lot of these are ancient designs just clinging to life out of enertia. Companies are too lazy to reinvest in new engines. What is most bothersome about Euro4 is when a fairly recent engine design won't pass it and has to be shelved. Not THAT many of those happening though. Honda has something like a dozen different engines between 125cc and 250cc. Why? It should be easier and more economical in the long run to just build two modern ones. Ironically, Honda's CBR250 with a modern liquid cooled engine sells for less than a number of their bikes with decades old air cooled engines, so obviously the engines aren't that much more to build. Look at how the Japanese companies deleted the entire 300cc-500cc class of engines all on their own, while ignoring the development of modern 650 engines.

    I think the Japanese are being forced to do what the Europeans have always done, which is pick a general engine design, stick with it, refine it and build 3-5 totally different world bikes off it, which is more cost effective than building 40 different engines for 60 different bikes for at least 3 different markets. And I forget the actual count, but I did try to count it once and those numbers aren't that far off of what Honda actually does.

    Edit: I count over 40 engines (not including DSG variants) and lost count when I pased 100 different models based on them. Just some unrelated interesting trivia. Meanwhile, Moto Guzzi has three engines. Of note is that Honda has virtually abandoned the cruiser market, apparently after exhausting all demand. Looks like ADV bikes have destroyed that market, or essentially has stolen it.
    #32
  13. Paul124ac

    Paul124ac Long timer

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    I totally understand the need to move on, nobody wants the smog clouds or the cancer and there is absolutely no argument that injection gives you so much more, but it's analogous to growing up in the 70's with all that great music. Some Disneyfied spoilt offspring of a one-trick country crooner with a dodgy ticker is not and never will be Pink Floyd. That's what I mean by its sad that they are going, I ride bikes to hear that engine, feel that vibe, all that shit. The new M3 FFS plays a soundtrack thru the stereo. What's next, fake two stroke smoke blowing out a replica stinger on an electric CR 500 interpretation?
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  14. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    I used to feel like that, but then I found Porcupine Tree and all was well again in the universe. And liquid cooled V engines. But it's cool, because there are plenty of old bikes out there that can be resurrected legally. It's like Peter Gabriel. He kept moving forward and kept getting better with every album.
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  15. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

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    I don't, and if you recall his boss, Davide Zanolini was very affirmative about Piaggio & C. SpA and Moto Guzzi's participation in developing a serious ADV machine for the future -- granted he was very vague about that, but both of these guys are marketing weenies -- or do they steer the company?
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  16. motomoda

    motomoda Long timer

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    With respect John the idea that 'Companies are too lazy to invest in new engines' is laughable! It's suggesting that an engine, especially one that will meet euro 5, can simply be pulled out of a hat!

    Designing the motor alone is an expensive business! Never mind the entire vehicle to put it in. While Honda may have vast resources a firm like Guzzi, even with a bit of Piaggio money behind it,simply doesn't have those sorts of funds to plough into R&D.
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  17. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    With respect, they've updated the V7 engine, and come out with two new engines just in the last several years. The new 1200 replacement engine has supposedly been underway for 4 years now, unless the information is simply wrong, but it jibes with what "the suit" is saying. I don't see anything pie in the sky about showing a "show bike" with the new engine in 2017 and a working prototype in 2018. Also notice that they aren't even proposing a new big engine for Aprilia, but actually talking about using their 900cc and under engines for new bikes and maybe bringing out some new smaller engines.

    I mean, you're right, it's not pure laziness, Honda obviously have engine production lines they want to keep going with existing tooling and don't want to purchase more tooling for the latest engines because of the cost. They can also sell these bikes for $1000-$2000 because they're largely ancient, junky designs.

    I'm definitely not saying Moto Guzzi is lazy, they're probably risking bankruptcy every day with R&D money being spent so there's considerable risk.

    For Honda, they could replace 12 engines with two, except they'd have to invest more money and raise the prices on some of these cheap bikes considerably if they put a new watercooled Euro4 engine in them (in countries that couldn't care less). But you can clearly see how they are putting most of their eggs in a few of their newest engine baskets - the 250/300cc single, the 500cc twin, the 700/750cc twin, just as Yamaha is putting their eggs in the 300cc twin, 700cc twin and 850cc triple. Every year, the Japanese are going to have to kill off an engine or two until they are down to around 15 engines or so, instead of 30 or 40. The older engines have about 2.5 bikes per engine, the newest ones are about 4 bikes per engine.
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  18. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    Though, I bet if you really look at it, Honda's only doing maybe 1-2 new engines per year, and making some minor updates on a few others. A good number of their engines are a good 30-40 years old and still in production, so that's about right if you run it out.
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  19. motomoda

    motomoda Long timer

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    Errr? No, not really. The V9 and V7III motors are virtually identical to their predecessors. The only significant difference is the use of a hemispherical combustion chamber head and suitable piston. That alone does not a *New* engine make.

    Most of the inovation in the last few years has gone into the gearboxes and to a lesser extent the final drives. The 'Nuovo Six Speed' used in the V7-II on smallblocks is a lovely thing although you wouldn't want to coast down a long hill n neutral with the engine off! The Cali 14 box is an evolution of the 1200 six speed and reincorporated the face cam shock absorber on the input shaft that was dropped for the 1200 for some reason. I have no idea why they redesigned the smallblock bevelboxes. Interestingly the V7-III still uses the earlier box.

    The Cali 1400 motor is essentially identical to the 1200 apart from larger cooling galleries in the heads and an extra plug. Both the V9 and later Cali 14's use air injection to reduce hydrocarbon emissions.

    Not really a lot *New* there, although it looks like the V9 will be getting extra valves soon.
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  20. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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