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Discussion in 'Moto Bellissima: All Other Dualsports' started by John Ashman, Jun 11, 2017.
I'm familiar with the bike and it's powerplant. I don't think it classifies as a *New* engine.
The 1400 is sufficiently different as is the 850 to be considered new engines. The v7 had a massive overhaul less than 10 years ago. New enough. Few engines are 100% new. Honda maybe has 5 or so in the last ten years? 250, 500, 700/750, AT1000? What else? Even the NC engine is just a car engine cut in half.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree but really the differences between the 1200 and 1400 are miniscule. Believe me, I have a LOT of Nuovo Hi-Cam experience.
I'd take Motomoda's word on this before I'd swallow anything wholesale from Cycle World which is a wholly owned and paid shill marketing group -- any information you get there is in one way or another marketing copy that should be taken with a truck load of rock salt. Pete's not selling anything -- it's all good will with him...
Ever since the first ride on my old LM III I've been a big fan of Moto Guzzi. Unfortunately though (as mentioned before) they've turned into a hipster brand.
I would be first inline to buy a bike with the character of the guzzi's of around 1980, heavy flywheel, no counter torque type stuff etc etc. And not a big cruiser or whatever model type is the fashion now, but a simple decent bike like the old V1000 or T5 (an UJM). Not a 1200cc pig weighing a ton, not a 700 as it would be a bit small, something that delivers 60 to 70 hp would be fine.
Yeah there are a lot of us that are pretty depressed with the direction Moto Guzzi is going with the ugly, corner-cutting, miniature, emasculated, retro-poser bikes. There's nothing good you can say about them.
There may be common parts, but a 1400cc is a different and new engine, even if based on a 1200. That isn't a special rule for Moto Guzzi and it is the overwhelming way people look at engines. The Tiger 800 engine is a new engine based on the Street Triple. We have a different term "ground up or "clean sheet" for an all new engine like the AT1000 engine.
New cams, pistons, cylinder walls, crank, etc, etc = new engine. That is the very core of the engine itself. So yes, I absolutely disagree, regardless of how derivative you think an engine might be.
Emasculated? You mean by putting in bigger engines and something like actual horsepower? They've come a long way from the old junk they were. Fit and finish in the new 1400s is fantastic Too refined now?
No, I mean tiny sub-scale frames and a sit position made for midgets, suspension with less travel then a Rascal Scooter -- these are bikes intended for petite women, and very small boys that have too much of mommy's & daddy's money to spend on something they don't need, are't going to ride, and really only want to pose with. The suspension on these bikes is about as 'refined' a leaf springs on a mobile home, and the mobile home has more travel -- c'mon...
Same cams, only difference in pistons is diameter, barrels are identical. Heads are effectively unchanged apart from cooling galleries and an extra plug. Only difference in crank is the balance factor due to the piston weight being different between the 1200 and the 1400.
When you rollerise a 1200 motor you swap out the camboxes/rocker supports. When you do this you fit the ones from the 1400 motor with provision for the second plug. They slip straight on! Apart from a few minor changes to the castings of the cases to allow for all the mounting hardware for the rubber mounts used to isolate vibration the two motors are identical. I'm currently building a 1400 motor to slip into a Griso and apart from having to do a bit of jiggery-pokery to get the CR correct it's all just bolt-up 1400 Cali parts! Sorry, but to suggest the 1400 is a *New* motor is extraordinarily naive and indicates a very shallow knowledge of the product. Go and look at the parts lists and you'll see how much communality there is between the models then come back and tell me with your hand on your heart it's a *New* engine!
Guzzi continues, as they have for decades, to produce two basic motive platforms and two engines. The Bigblock and the Smallblock. When they produce something radically different I will acknowledge it and I hope that it will be innovative and admirable. The last real change to motor design though was the Nuovo hi-cam used in big blocks from 2007 and its production continues today in the grotesque heffalump that is the Cali 1400 but even that has its antecedents that can be linked back to the very earliest V7 of 1967!
So we already have a big old axe and a little hatchet, what are the chances the chainsaw is going to be electric?
You know what "effectively unchanged" is? Changed. It's a new engine because it's a bigger engine with different parts. This isn't rocket science. Again, there's "new" and there's "all new".
And then there's emasculated poser bikes, for tiny, trendy, effeminate hipsters...
By that definition if they paint the cases a different colour then it's a 'New Engine'. Amirite?
Sounds fair...at least to a 2002 v 11 owner....
Now if they change the serial number does that make it a new design? Pete, I suspect you're wasting your breath.
No, because that wouldn't require all new certification and classification in most every country in the world. EVERY relevant government agency world wide will tell you that the 1400cc engine is a DIFFERENT and NEW engine, regardless of how many parts you may think they have in common.
Your assertion that sharing components is the same as not being a new engine is absurd and runs against all reality worldwide.
I mean, you're free to believe it, but it's simply ridiculous and wrong. Not the least of which is because every performance parameter is different. Every one.
I really don't care what some whey-faced scroll beetle in a government department classifies as a 'New Motor'. By my definition, and the definition of any other competent mechanic who actually works on the blessed things none of the minor updates to the 8V motor or the small block motor would be described as making it a new design. At best I'd call it 'Slightly Altered' but you obviously have a different way of looking at things. Thats fine. It makes no difference to me.
To me a 'New Design' would involve something like the changes that occurred when the five speed gearboxes were changed for the six speeds in the V7's or the Original big block six speed was changed to the nuovo six speed used in the CARC bikes. If the 1400 had a double overhead cam design and downdraught induction? Yes, then it would be a 'New Engine' just hogging it out by a couple of hundred cm3 does not make it new, it just gives it more capacity.
I don't think just Mechanics would run with that definition, competent Engineers would agree as well, and anyone that knows the difference between marketing copy and an honest portrayal of what's being described. I understand motorcycle companies need to make money, and even pretenders to journalism; there are mouths to feed -- but marketing and its shill partner journalism have really jumped the shark in the last decade.
Bringing things full circle to the OT I think this sums up PR, Marketing, and Advertising in this decade and peoples uncritical acceptance nicely:
Separating substantive empirical facts, engineering concepts, and the real value they offer or don't isn't that hard, can be a lot of fun, and is something I wish more people would step up with and just say it like Pete Roper. It's not just the motorcycle industry that's saturated with adjective prefixed drivel, exaggerations and out right lies; it's marketing across the board, from medicine to advocacy science to politics...
Another little factoid.
The 1400 Cali motorbikes use a completely different EMS to the 1200's. That being the case there would obviously be a requirement for a new compliance regulation. That fact alone leaves the 'New Motor So It *Needs* To Be Re-Complianced'! argument swinging in the breeze. New model? New compliance! Doesn't mean the engine is *New*.
Old junk? To which model would you be speaking? I own basically own one Guzzi of each design (single cylinder, Loop, Tonti, Small Block, Spine, etc) of its modern (66 forward) epoch and honestly can say there is no junk among them. In fact, every one has over 50,000 miles and I've never been left stranded by any. They are all infinitely better constructed in fit and finish than any of the Japanese crap I've owned in the last 35-40 years. So are you regurgitating urban legend, or are you speaking from experience?
Compared to a Loop frame Ambassador or Eldorado, the fit and finish of the 1400 Cali, is pedestrian.