Interesting Moto Guzzi/Aprilia article

Discussion in 'Moto Bellissima: All Other Dualsports' started by John Ashman, Jun 11, 2017.

  1. motomoda

    motomoda Long timer

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    The bling that surrounds the extremely cheap and nasty gas cap on the Cali 14 is a horrid bit of pressed tin! First time I had to take one off I put a 3mm deep slice in my finger! Love that build quality....NOT!

    Who'd want all that nasty metal bling on a motorbike anyway? Moulded plastic is a far more versatile material for most bodywork and weighs a fraction of steel. Good grief, Guzzis are hardly light even when stripped down!

    Bring on the 'Poor' build quality if it involves stuff like light petrol tanks that don't slice you up and the filler cap on a Griso is a work of art!
    #61
  2. WitchCityBallabio

    WitchCityBallabio Guzzi weirdo

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    The aeronautic styled fuel caps are absolutely the best. They seal well, easy to open (although I could live without using a key) and elegant. I thought the days of big goofy spin on fuel caps was over on motorcycles.
    #62
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  3. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    I understand. Technological progress is embarrassing.
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  4. WitchCityBallabio

    WitchCityBallabio Guzzi weirdo

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    It's just that some people's notion of what progress is, that's embarrassing.
    #64
  5. motomoda

    motomoda Long timer

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    What? Pressed tin pieces that hurt people are 'Technological Progress'? You are funny! :D
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  6. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

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    What? The internal combustion engine is over two hundred years old and has made less progress than shoe design and engineering... Most of the 'progress' has been either marketing, or design to meet government regulation and then marketed as an improvement. What real progress has been made is the result of R&D in other sciences, and commercial venues that have incrementally and trivially benefited internal combustion engines. Or are you suggesting something like it's embarrassing we've made so little progress and don't have fuel cells heating closed loop steam turbines on motorcycles?
    #66
  7. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    If only we could go back to the days of seizing engines and 4 speed transmissions. Those were the days -

    "Both the V35 (66mm bore x 50.6mm stroke) and the V50 (74mm bore x 57mm stroke) were plagued by unacceptable seizures. "
    #67
  8. WitchCityBallabio

    WitchCityBallabio Guzzi weirdo

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    I had a V50. It had 55,000 miles when I sold it and it ran like a charm.

    Most of those seizures came from running the bikes out of oil and not checking level.

    I have a 4 speed on my Ambassador and while a bit agricultural, it is built like something made to move tanks. It has been flawless.

    Do you have any thoughts or experiences of your own on this, or are you just gonna puke out crap you've Googled?
    #68
  9. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    Well, just that I had a customer that had a MG California that he loved, but "OMG, what build quality" wasn't any of the thoughts I had.

    It's not like MG has been famous for its quality suspension or frame rigidity either. All I've ever heard is "but it's got CHARACTER".

    "The V65 was developed with both standard Heron type, and with four-valve-per-cylinder thermodynamics, the latter being credited with 60 horsepower.......its pushrod-and-rocker valve train was plagued by destructive valve-float problems, in addition to the chassis feeling hopelessly vague."
    #69
  10. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    I for one am glad they are building NEW engines and updating their stuff, because I love V engines and shaft drive. My 35 year old Honda Sabre was far more technologically advanced than Moto Guzzis today still.
    #70
  11. motomoda

    motomoda Long timer

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    Your ignorance of Moto Guzzi continues to astound! Please, carry on! It's hilarious! I really don't have the time to correct your piffle but it's fun to read!
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  12. Dr AT

    Dr AT Long timer

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    My v50 didn't seize in the 100,000 I owned it either :y0!Unlike most of the jap bikes I was riding at the time....

    But lets be fair to John...he's right about the v50 suspension - cartridge forks back in the early 80's - technological advances are embarrasing :fpalm
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  13. Dr AT

    Dr AT Long timer

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    Ummm...John...wasn't the sabre a v4 ? And how did the tecnologically advanced valve design treat you? If we believe all the printed rubbish from the time, every honda valve from 1982 to 1988 would implode before reaching the store. Now, we all know the reality would be more like minor issues on 3/4 badly maintained xr 250 re motors and perhaps a vf 750 thrashed around a racetrack ...but do you really want to play google history ?
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  14. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    My mechanic did a great job of maintaining it, actually. Way more power than any Moto Guzzi and smooth and quiet. Except for valve noise, all you heard was wind while riding it. It didn't have stellar suspension either, but it was far faster and more powerful than today's V7.
    #74
  15. WitchCityBallabio

    WitchCityBallabio Guzzi weirdo

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    Funny. I had a V65 Sabre and it was one of the worst handling bikes I ever owned. Horrid shaft jacking, and was like driving a truck in corners.

    I had a CX500 deluxe too. The water pump went tits up in 6000 miles. Awesome quality. Spare me.
    #75
  16. Dr AT

    Dr AT Long timer

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    For the record, over the past 30/40 years I've swung from being a Honda, ktm, and guzzi fan. I can't say I'd buy any post 1995 Hondas - somewhere around then it felt like they stopped being run by a motorbike enthusiast and started being run by a marketing department . Basically I'm not interested in any bike with more than 4 letters in the model name and more than 4 acronym stickers plastered advertising the "technology" (marketing gimmicks) . same thing seemed to happen to ktm mid 2000's, and guzzi went the same way recently (they've been there on and off for decades, but every so often something like the grisio comes out to restore my faith in guzzi engineers)

    Take an objective look at the "technology" we had inflicted on us by bikes like the sabre - brake activated suspension stuffing crap stuck on the forks (can't remember the acronym - but what moron decided you need less compliant suspension when braking???). Or a 4 cylinder cruiser.....only an advertising jerk with a very small penis would think of that one...perfect for selling to men with small minds. Then again, they did build the mighty cx...then put a turbo on it :imaposer
    #76
  17. danketchpel

    danketchpel Long timer

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    I think Aprilia went in the right direction with a 900 and I completely believe Guzzi would do very well with a MODERN 850. By modern I mean something like Triumph has done with their new water cooled twins, they look retro but work like up to the minute engines/trans units.

    If there's anything to the bit about a water cooled, even partially, version with a good reliable/quiet 4 valve setup, and up to date combustion tech to meet emissions I'm all good with that. If they can pull some weight out of the lump, quite possible, that's even better. I'd friggen love a 500 lb 850 shaft driven Stelvio with around 85-90 hp and suitable torque. If they have to bump the displacement some but can keep the weight down fine.

    But I think from a marketing standpoint the obvious desirable gap in the ADV market is in the mid size bikes, especially as many have come to find just how much of a pig 600 lbs really is in the dirt. Leave the 1200+ ADV bikes in the past and fill the gap with more manageable bikes that still get the job done.
    #77
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  18. danketchpel

    danketchpel Long timer

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    I hate to tell you, but ALL road going diesels here in the States have Urea injection also, ugh.... I have a diesel in my 2016 Ford Transit van. I'm really happy with the engine and I don't mind adding the fluid at all. It's not expensive and it doesn't use that much of it. What I mind is the systems themselves have been of suspect reliability, for all manufacturers. So far I've had no trouble with mine (currently at ~20k miles), knock on some sort of wood...., but many who've used them in high mileage fleet use have not been so lucky.

    Thanks to VW now many manufacturers are even more reluctant to offer diesels here and the EPA is triple checking everybody's figures to make sure nobody else is cheating.
    #78
  19. Sock Monkey

    Sock Monkey 99% bullshitter...the other 1% is just lies

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    Totally agree. I think the ADV community is finally over its love affair with 600+lb "adventure" bikes and the next battle ground will be in <500lb (wet) bikes that can still carry all our gear, cruise comfortably at freeway speeds, and not fall to bits if the tires get dirty. Bring 'em on! :D
    #79
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  20. Hoak

    Hoak Long timer

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    God, I hope not...

    What's not good about the current 8V valve setup? It wears and fails safely, and is easy to service which is more then can be said about the shim bucket mess that requires virtually complete top end disassembly now as most of water cooled engines won't even let you get the shims out without taking the cams out, and are prone to corner case failure if not serviced. As for noise and California and the EU can get stuffed, if the valve clatter of a motorcycle is going to offend someone's sensibilities they shouldn't be riding motorcycles, they should be hiding, sheltering in place in a 'safe space ', cowering and shaking in fear that their breathing might be too loud making them enemies of the state...

    Water cooling and weight reduction -- do you realize what a non-sequitur this is?

    I agree there's a void here, but trying to fill it with a water cooled longitudinal v engines in 2018+ with the insane level of regulation engineers confront makes the likelihood of your weight targets about as realistic as the laws of physics changing to make that work for you.

    Granted if throw enough money at any design or engine plan, build it out of titanium and get to amazing weight targets; or give the bike spaghetti noodle forks a frame made out of playdough that's so sub-scale midgets would have their knees hitting their chin, and have some mass produced piece of shit that's as rugged as a sugar cookie in a rain storm -- but I don't imagine either outcome or it's real world approximation is what you're looking for.

    I totally disagree; I think some people don't like heavy bike's or bought one and were overwhelmed by it. There's no evidence 'the ADV community ' is finally over anything; big liter plus ADV bikes are selling well and there are as many if not more that love them for what they offer and don't expect the kind of single track performance that some of the would be lighter bike fans imagine a 500 lb bike will offer. I understand some people want some of what these bikes offer and are just concerned about lifting them, being injured or re-injured handling the weight.

    As a off road rider and once serious competitor I can offer that real world performance in power to weight, component quality of a 500 lb bike that's trying to hit the price targets manufacturers are going to try to meet is not going to dramatically surpass the current bevy of liter plus bikes for off or very rough road handling. In fact more significant compromises will be made to cost that will sorely disappoint many -- not only by how much what ever Moto Guzzi produces weighs, but how compromised the design is.

    We've just seen this unwind with the Africa Twin; it's not in any way a bad bike, it's just not what a lot of would be fans hoped for, being far heavier and more compromised in areas they were looking to see more capability and performance, compromised with respect to component quality, and just a lot more middling then they were all psyched up and convinced it would be.

    The Yamaha T7 will likely be a similar story, weigh a lot more then it's audience is pining for; have compromised components just like the Africa Twin like mushy flexy noodle forks to keep weight and costs down, have a surprisingly high cg due to the *07 engine plan, and have other rude surprises that just won't meet with more dirt-worthy expectations.

    To really get to lighter weight bikes with all the regulation and cost constraint in building motorcycles, the only way in the present day appears be two giant washing machine steps back, and go to a single cylinder engine; even these weigh over a hundred pounds more then they did thirty years ago due to water cooling, emissions goo-gaws, and all sorts of regulation specifications that confer a substantial weight penalty.
    #80