Intiminators or Emulators?

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Tiggleswerth, Feb 16, 2010.

?

Do you have/prefer Intiminators or Emulators?

  1. I've tried both, and prefer the Intiminators

  2. I've tried both, and prefer the Emulators

  3. I have the Intiminators

  4. I have the Emulators

Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Tiggleswerth

    Tiggleswerth Jansport

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    I am debating between these two products for my DR650. I am just wanting to get an understanding of what people here on ADV prefer in their bike. This shouldn't be just for the DR650, I think anyone who has tried either of these products on their bike should chime in. Have you you tried both, and which one do you prefer? If you have only tried one, were the results good?
    #1
  2. flux_capacitor

    flux_capacitor I know a shortcut!

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    I had the Ricor Intiminators in my Tiger. Loved them. Next to the Corbin seat it was the best mod I did. No more nasty fork dive but was still very plush taking up the smaller bumps. Loved them on and off road. :ricky
    #2
  3. kdxkawboy

    kdxkawboy Mr. NVKLRGirl

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    The Intiminators' literature claims it is the only thing that can tell the difference between wheel travel and chassis movement, which is nothing but a dog and pony show done with smoke and mirrors. Laws of physics will tell you that is not possible without fancy motion detection sensors. They are nothing more than a lets create a different design that achieves the same affect as Race Tech Emulators and then let a marketing schmuck create lies that the gullible and ignorant will believe. Me, I prefer to go with original and not reward a clever thief..
    #3
  4. Foot dragger

    Foot dragger singletracker

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    Ive got the emulators in my DR,.50 springs and I backed the emulators two turns out from stock setting to soften them up some, They work great and Im not sure how the intiminators do the trick with stock springs or can tell the difference between fork dive and sharp bumps.
    Ive got a set of intiminators for my strom but havent put em in yet.
    #4
  5. TNC

    TNC Candyass Camper

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    kdx, isn't what the Intiminators bring to a fork similar to what Curnutt did to off road shocks way back when? Isn't it somewhat of a stable platform valve?...if that's the right terminology. Off road trucks and other rigs with some long travel were wallowing a good deal in turns and such, and Charlie Curnutt came up with that stable platform valving to keep the vehicle ride height more stable in corners while still allowing the shock to work when the wheels actually hit something. He later transferred that technology to dirt motorcycle shocks for the same reason. I had a set on a '76 Husky 360, and they worked great.

    Charlie sold the rights of that design to Progressive, Manitou (bicycle suspension), and Brent Foes (bicycle frame and suspension designer). They all made some very high tech mountainbike suspension technology with that stable platform valving. Fox also came up with a similar version called Terralogic. If I understand correctly, the technology revolves around the concept of how it's easier for a terrain force at the wheel to compress the suspension than it is for the vehicle weight to compress the suspension. Now I'm no engineer, so bear with my simplistic explanation. A terrain force such as a decent bump will overcome the platform valve and let the suspension operate as it should. The platform valving is stiff enough, however, to resist the suspension compression from most braking or body/chassis roll or dive to keep ride height manageable or stable until a certain point.

    Now, some would just say this is a heavy compression design, but heavy compression is more constant and harsh than Charlie's design. The platform valving will release at a designed point allowing the suspension to function in a more plush and linear fashion. I've ridden some stuff with stiff compression settings to control dive, and it's usually pretty harsh through most of the stroke. When I saw the design description and picture of how an Intiminator works, it looked to me like a very similar concept to Charlie Curnutt's old design. In fact, I wondered if they had patent issues...perhaps. Anyway, I put a set in my KLR650, and they work as advertised.

    You mention that they are basically an Emulator design, but I'm thinking there's a difference in that platform valving issue present in the Intiminator. Whether it's good, better, or best is up for debate obviously, but I'm not so sure it's a technical copy of the Emulator. I will agree that whoever worded some of their claims and advertising may have graduated from a used car salesman academy, but basically I think it's close to a Charlie Curnutt stable platform valve design...which can work quite well for some applications. And none of this is a dis' to Race Tech. The Emulator is quite good, and I would probably use it on a more dirt worthy bike with ported orifice dampers where full bump compliance was more critical. The heavier, piggier, big-bore dual sports like KLR's, DR's, and similar might benefit more from the anti-dive compromise of the Intiminator. I have Race Tech Gold Valving in my '06 KLX250S and absolutely love it, but that shock and fork are shim stack designs with more tuning potential.
    #5
  6. Sasquatch

    Sasquatch Banned

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    I have tried both. Tested back and forth to get a good feel. Intimidators work a bit better, but not enough better to erase the price difference.
    #6
    pepelopez and DirtScoot like this.
  7. Tiggleswerth

    Tiggleswerth Jansport

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    Thanks for the input everyone, anyone else?
    #7
  8. Beezer

    Beezer Long timer Supporter

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    As I remember there is a big difference in tuning between the two... the Gold valves you have to disassemble the forks & shim (mebby drill some holes too? don't remember), then possibly re-shim until you get what you want. The Ricors you simply drop in the hole and maybe try different oil levels. I have the Rs,,, work good for me.
    #8
  9. sellmeyer

    sellmeyer Been here awhile

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    adding to TNC's comments, specifically about the FOX use of the valve in their Terralogic products

    I have a specialized SWorks Epic mountain bike with the Terralogic type FOX suspension on the front and rear. I have to say that, for the most part most of the time, the valve provides a cyclist with the added benefit of mitigating:

    1. fork dive caused by rider input; i.e. inadvertently compressing the forks by increasing the force on the handlebars when riding out of the saddle
    2. rear shock compression caused by the moments involved with the chain drive
    The FOX suspension offered a sensitivity adjustment that allow the rider to adjust the point where the valve opened and allowed the supsention to travel. The input which opened the valve would be an upwards input to the suspension elements generated by terrain, not the rider. The lower the setting the smaller the input required to open up the travel; a higher setting would require more input.

    This system worked pretty well on the bicycle, but I can't say that it is very necessary on a motorbike; particularly not on the front forks of a dirt bike. A street bike, maybe because the added stiffness might improve front wheel tracking...?

    Since we're only talking about the forks here, can someone tell me why it would be desirable to stiffen up the forks on a dirt bike?
    #9
  10. Tiggleswerth

    Tiggleswerth Jansport

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    Its not so much to stiffen the forks up, that is what stiffer springs are for. What these products do for conventional damper rod forks like on my DR650 is add more damping control, to improve the overall function of the forks
    #10
  11. TNC

    TNC Candyass Camper

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    sellmeyer, good description on the Terralogic and its mountainbike application. However, there is a value in the anti-dive properties apparent in the Ricor component. Heavier dual sport bikes in particular can benefit from the excessive dive control that the Intiminator can provide while also providing some better/plusher damping at the same time.

    The RT Emulators do have you drill out the damper rod to flow more oil and let the shim stack...I think there's a shim stack in the Emulator...provide the damping control instead of the "dumb" ported orifice in the damper rod. Front fork dive is still controlled by the compression damping and the spring rate. This is not as big an issue on real dirt bikes with better suspension components and lighter weight, but a heavy DP bike needs a balancing act of the right spring rate, compression damping, and oil viscosity. And on a DP bike you try to control dive without making the fork harsh.

    Here's where the Intiminator and its platform valve...or whatever other moniker one might want to put on it...offers a different compromise. Ricor has you drop the fork oil weight to 5wt. On a stock KLR fork this would create an awful pogo stick. The Intimininators maintain a platform pressure on the damping that stiffens relatively small inputs like brake dive on a smoother surface, but allows terrain force bumps and such to open the valving to give a smooth, linear compression through the Intiminator valve. While it may be hard to believe that brake dive is a small input, I believe it is accepted that it is small compared to road/terrain bump forces. The terrain bump forces more easily overcome the platform valving and allow the suspension to work as needed. The braking and rider inputs are usually not great enough to overcome the valving, and the fork dive and ride height are more controlled. What happens if you brake and hit bumps at the same time? The platform is overcome, as it should be, and the suspension continues to function and damp those bumps.

    sellmeyer, you're right about not all aspects of mountainbiking and dirt motors having the same elements, but the brake dive on big, heavier, DS bikes can be a problem. The Intiminators provide brake dive control while still yielding plush damping. A clever idea that Charlie Curnutt came upon several decades ago. And for a bonus, the Ricor device doesn't require a complete fork tear down. This is really a solid option for many bikes with "dumb" ported orifice damper rods.
    #11
  12. Benjava

    Benjava ?

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    Wow
    blah blah terrain blah blah blah chassis blah blah blah.
    Why don't you just call it what it is?

    High speed and low speed dampening. :lol3

    It seems to me that Ricor's pricing is brilliantly designed to take advantage of people who are afraid to take their forks apart.
    #12
  13. trailrider383

    trailrider383 867-5309

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    On a DR650 it does create an awful pogo stick on certain terrain. The Intiminators don't control the rebound, nor does the Emulator. The Intiminator specifies 5w oil only. The emulator tells you to change oil viscosity to change the rebound dampening. The rebound with the Intiminator and 5w oil was too fast for my tastes. I have 15w oil with the Emulators now and I like the rebound dampening rate. Note: This is my opinion!
    #13
  14. Tiggleswerth

    Tiggleswerth Jansport

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    Well I think I am leaning toward emulators right now, I like the price and the adjustability.
    #14
  15. Hal@Ricor

    Hal@Ricor Hal@Ricor

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    Insolent tone duly noted.

    The fact is the Ricor Inertia Active Shock (IAS) does respond differently than a conventional shock. The inertia valve is a pressure insensitive motion sensing valve that is biased closed until an acceleration input from the axle only opens the valve. Chassis motion will not open the valve.

    Are you saying it's not possible to make a shock respond differently when the wheel moves vs the chassis motion? Maybe you should tell Specialized they are full of shit too. Check out their inertia valve Brain shock. Their shock/forks resist peddling induced chassis movement by valving the shock/fork stiffly. When the inertia valve senses wheel movement, the softer response is provided. Maybe their animation can explain it better than I can.

    http://cdn.specialized.com/bc/microsite/suspension/suspension.html

    Please study our animated youtube.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TA0NHDMsKNc&feature=related

    It shows the tire input opening the valve. Chassis input does not open the valve regardless of how much force is exerted. We have the option of tuning the tire input response for the best ride, comfort and traction. The chassis input response is tuned for more stability than a conventional shock should be tuned.

    Bottom line: you haven't done your homework
    #15
  16. trailrider383

    trailrider383 867-5309

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    Your links don't work.
    #16
  17. Hal@Ricor

    Hal@Ricor Hal@Ricor

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    Trailrider...
    Try a copy and paste. I just clicked on them on your reply and both opened correctly.
    For the record I posted on Don Richardsons behalf (the inventor of the first successful IAS shock) as he was having a password challeng logging in.
    Hal

    Just saw the posts and pictures of your desert ride, and now clearly understand your handle. Awesome thread, great pictures... thanks
    Three Corners Of Idaho-Oregon-Nevada 2009
    #17
  18. trailrider383

    trailrider383 867-5309

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    Thanks, I tried the copy and paste and it works. :thumb
    #18
  19. Sasquatch

    Sasquatch Banned

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    Hal,

    For the life of me I am still not getting it. I just spent the last 3 hours with a set of Tiger forks on the bench trying to see how in any way the inside of the fork knows when it is compressing whether or not the force came from the bottom (wheel) or top (chassis). Maybe I am just stupid. After all, I am only a mechanical engineer with 20 years experience and have been building suspensions for many years.

    High speed valving/low speed valving, yes, I get that. But the fluid transfers in the fork the same no matter how it compresses. The fork slider is still sliding within the tube. It does not matter if the force is coming up from the bottom, or down through the top. The fork is still compressing.

    Imagine this. Hold a fork in your hands. Your left hand holds the slider, the right the lower tube. Now, compress the fork together with both hands. Now just compress with your right holding the left hand stationary, and again holding your right hand stationary. It simply does not matter to the inside of the fork. The fluid moves through the valve the same.

    Your little animation implies that the fluid moves differently depending on which direction the force comes from. It does not.

    I am open to the fact I may be missing something here, and if I am, please enlighten me. But for now all I see is a marketing gimmick. I still believe your valve performs better than the RT though. Not quite enough better to justify the cost difference, in my opinion.
    #19
    RowBust likes this.
  20. Navaho

    Navaho Long timer

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    I have some for half off. PM sent.
    #20