Is it feasible, To make a Mini Tini Milling machine out of a...

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by Ricardo Kuhn, Aug 17, 2016.

  1. insomnia

    insomnia Been here awhile

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    thanks its for finishing off my bike shed to start with and it would just be a nice bit of kit to have . I would also really like a drill press stand for my corded hand drill and a 14 inch chop saw . of course a small hobby lathe would be great but I don't really have much use for one just be nice to have . I got a real beauty of an arch welder 2 small grinders one never even used in the box I just bought at as a stand by and I got a hand drill but I will buy another to have as back up these things have a habit of going bang right when you need them most be handy to just reach out for the spare one seeing as they are only cheap . one more thing I would really love in my bike shed / workshop is an inverter welder and tig welding rig and a large bottle of argon then I would be sorted . then theres the basic wood working tools I want . vacuum gauges and a micrometre I want them too I had forgotten them . sorry for going off topic I just felt like discussing pop revit tools and maybe get other riders thinking about cool tools to have .
    #41
  2. FixerDave

    FixerDave KLR650 - XR200R

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    I respectfully disagree on the 1/4" and reamer. A drill or reamer will not automatically turn a concentric hole but rather follow the first one. As the threaded mount to the motor will likely be neither centered nor straight, boring after assembly will compensate while reaming will not. That's why I suggested boring, though I didn't want to get into why.

    And, if it's to be boring, then a 3/8" target is possible while 1/4" is pretty much impossible with the equipment at hand. There are lots of small endmills to be be had with 3/8" shanks. I have several 1/8" and under, and I don't have anything smaller than an 3/8" Weldon Shank holder. I do agree that a 1/4" endmill on this will be on the large side of what's possible.

    The "modify a drillbit to be a boring bar" approach keeps with the "do it cheap" approach of the OP. It doesn't have to work well, and he can try multiple times until something cuts. He could, if he wanted, just go buy a cheap boring bar set... but even the cheap Chinese braised carbide sets would cost more than he's into this project for, and newbies are really hard on carbide. I still avoid it because I keep wrecking them doing stupid things. Same goes for the base... agreed that steel or even aluminum would be better, but MDF scraps are either on hand, looking at his shop pictures, or cheap to get if not.

    The idea is to make an adapter that threads in place of the existing chuck. However, it would have to extend to at least 1" bellow the bottom plate of the head or you will have nasty clearance issues trying to work, or even just see the work. From this picture, it appears that will be difficult. You are going to have to open up the bottom hole somehow. Don't know what tools you have, maybe a hole saw could do it if you start by driving a chunk of wood into the existing hole to guide the holesaw pilot. Clamp a handdrill upside down on the table and lower the head onto it?

    The good news is that the head is made of substantial material, so you have a lot to work with. I do think some kind of bottom bearing support would help with milling, but doing it right will take some skill and would probably be a better second project.

    The bad news is that I don't think you'll be happy drilling with this thing. When you are using a drillpress, you pull down on the quill handle, feeling the progress of the cutting drill as you go and adjusting the pressure accordingly. Right? The "handle on a moving quill" thing is called a "sensitive" drillpress, and it works that way for a reason. A mortising machine moves the whole head up and down and, as such, you will lose that feel. Not an issue in wood, especially when you're driving a chisel into the work at the same time. Drilling will be a lot more frustrating on metal. But, then, you can try that out as it is. Other than being annoying to chuck the drill, you can drill metal as it is now. Go drill some 1/8" or 1/4" holes in steel and see how it goes.

    David...
    #42
  3. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    I decide to keep the main structure kind of intact, If I cut the front face and the connectors to the back it will become to weak..
    [​IMG]

    I know is not much but I'm happy for now..
    [​IMG]

    On monday I'm going to talk with the guys from Ereplacements, the are really helpful, super nice and about 5 miles away..

    I'm ambivalent about taking the "Adapter" out to get access to a wider axle for the chuck but it will be mounted about a inch shorter (I have the constraint of the cage of the Delta) or keeping the adapter and getting a better chuck for the narrower shaft..

    Adapter.
    http://www.ereplacementparts.com/adapter-p-88532.html

    The stock chuck..
    http://www.ereplacementparts.com/chuck-wkey-p-88533.html

    What do you guys think it makes for sense for now..??

    I will love to pursue the milling machine idea with a proper collet for the mills, but it needs to make sense, since is so many weak issues by using a design is not supposed to deal with side loads, etc
    #43
  4. EastRoad

    EastRoad Road Viking

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    david,
    I know what you're saying about the reamer / drill approach vs. boring bar.
    The problem I see is that a small lathe and improvised tooling, often will leave things on a very unprecise level.
    A boring bar that has enough flex will cause a lot of problems for something like a tool-holder-to-be.
    I operate cnc equipement at my shop, and the difference, even between an el-cheapo ER32 Collet & holder vs. a good quality one are rather striking... and that is on a machine that has a pretty rigid column, a massively sized spindle, very good bearings, a Z-Axis that is balanced & counterweighted.
    So the tiny differnece of a so-so collet & holder vs. a good one becomes quickly notable... especially once you go micro-sized tooling and notice how much faster the tool will break.
    Now what the OP has is of course FAR from such equipment... the motor isn't made for milling, the bearings are not really "qualified for the job", neither is the spindle, table and mounts.
    now if the size of the Weldon holder's hole isn't really "perfect", as the set screw will then off-set the tool, this will add a pretty drastic problem.
    Getting the hole perfectly sized (and of course centered) would be crucial.

    I agree that your approach of the boring bar would be the best for getting the hole sized... then ream it to size....
    But doing it with a boring bar, would require a good boring bar - or at least a LOT of experience with grinding and setting up the improvised cutter.
    Drill bits, especially smaller diameter ones just have too much flex to get the job done with any bit of precision.
    you're more likely to create that involuntary "taper", as the drill will start to deviate especially if the shape isn't good, the cutting part starts to wear or the cut depth was even slightly too much.
    Sure with PATIENCE (and some practice) it can be worked out.

    then again, a small sized boring bar, good but not top-notch high end quality will cost like 25$...
    one with carbide inserts can be found for approx. 80-90$ (again, solid quality but not high end)...
    I would consider a boring bar (preferably with a carbide insert) to be one of the 10 must have tools for any lathe.
    Its not like it's a one-time use item... once you have it you'll use it... so I'd say, these 25-100$ would be a good investment for any lathe owner.

    With a proper boring bar, I agree, good aproach... with an improvised one? well.
    #44
  5. EastRoad

    EastRoad Road Viking

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    If you're looking at using it as a drill press, I guess your decision makes sense ;)

    And in regards to your decision on the milling: I'd say that makes sense too ;)


    also to consider: at some point, throw out both the mortiser-now-drill-press and the from your description not so good drill press and replace it with a used mill-drill combo.
    This way you should not be accused of acquiring even MORE tools - matter of fact you got rid of TWO and replaced it with ONE ... ;) (that should be convincing ...)
    even a basic cheap Rong Fu Mill-drill will outperform most regular drill presses at drilling... it won't outperform any dedicated milling machine at milling, but it would be a hell of an improvement on any drill to mill conversion.
    I've seen them go as low as 400$ used...
    #45
  6. FixerDave

    FixerDave KLR650 - XR200R

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    I think you're just funnin' with us. How did you cut out that front? If you can figure out how to do that, you don't need any stupid advice from us :jkam I'm going to go play in my shop now

    Oh, personally, I'd have left a little more metal, but whatever.

    David...
    #46
  7. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Oh easy, two hole saws (the "Column" material on the sides of the hole is the exact same amount but the lower circle is 4mm wider) then 4 1/2" grinder with a cutting wheel, then tons of hand filling (did I mention I have become really patient..??

    Again two holes, cutting with whatever I can and then file like crazy, here is where a Milling machine will make things easier and more precise....

    Note: Cannondale Lefty upper triple clamps, hack up and modified to pieces to work in a Car tablet mount..
    [​IMG]

    Manfrotto Rules (thanks Rick)
    [​IMG]

    Ps: With Grinders and belt sanders, i can be very precise (for the tool) but I need to get much better with the proper methods of fabrication..

    PsII: I can do "Solidworks" in my head all day long, but sadly the interface to my #-d hands is not exactly working..
    #47
  8. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    For example this is how I located my holes for now.. I use the Unimat or a holes saw to make a small circle and then divided in the axis (is accurate but not perfect.)


    Then to mark the 90 degree axis. I mount the delrin part on a piece of wood and use my miter saw to "SCribe" a define line, then clamp the two parts on the vice and start with a small drill bit until I get to the proper diameter, in this case making the 12mm hole for the head of the bolts with a forstner bit was a total pain in the butt (since the hole was already to wide for the tip of the Forstner to self center..
    [​IMG]
    #48
  9. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    #49
  10. EastRoad

    EastRoad Road Viking

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    Admirable effort and certainly well executed....

    Honestly though, if you look at all the work and parts and then sadly look at the fact, that despite this, it is now a mill drill that has still a round, non solid column, an undersized cast base....
    Sure it will mill... but by putting in that much work and parts (including a manual Z-Feed, etc...) I must, from a purely economical point of view, wonder whether it wouldn't have been far more efficient to just go and buy one of the many used old milling machines around.

    Couple of months ago I could have - for 400$ - bought an old LARGE manual milling machine, german make, about 2-Tons... + some tooling.
    I have no use for it, and my shop space is already limited... gave the info to a friend of mine and he picked it up.
    Two days of cleaning, some small adjustments, another 300$ for a DRO Set... and the thing works wonderfully well.... it's now his main productive large mill for manual work..
    Power feed on all three Axis, tilting head, a vise that weight as much as a cheap drill press.... and a bunch of tool holders (SK50) + older but OK Tools... 400$
    The digital readout was from Ebay (new) and really makes it a lot more versatile...
    So for 700$ the guy now has a pretty excellent, precise, extremely powerful milling machine, that given some TLC will last a lifetime.
    These things, small and large, are all over the place if one cares to look...

    To me any Drill to mill conversion is at best a fun project... or in a Pinch, when there is nothing else to be had...
    but usually if you make the math between parts and time, it would be perfectly possible to source an old slightly beaten up milling machine and have something that works well.
    #50
  11. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    i fully aggre.

    This is a great exemple, kind backwards because the unomats are very precise but come on it will never that capable
    http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/modifications-improvements-unimat-sl-1000-lathe-10111

    Oround here For some reason people want $5000-$6000 for a clap out clone of a Bridgeport, I know is not realist but what Can do
    #51
  12. EastRoad

    EastRoad Road Viking

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    Indeed... (lathe)

    prices:
    Used machine market can be a tad weird... here it's not the brigeport clones - here's it's anything that says "schaublin" (a swiss made machine) on it... no matter how beaten up and worn out, people ask for the machine's weight in gold ;).
    I've seen used CNC machining centers with "modern" Sinumeric Controls etc, tooling, etc go for half what some people here ask for a mid-size schaublin conventional (manual) milling machine.... go figure.

    You will most likely not find a bridgeport (or clone) for a good price... unless the seller has no clue what he's selling.

    But look for lesser known brands / models and you can get lucky enough.

    Also good to look at your local small adds stuff... craigslist... even ebay often has good stuff (but it's getting more and more swamped with crap)..

    Sometimes it's worth to chat your local small machinist's businesses up...
    if you'd be in my area, I could point you out to at two affordable machines currently.... of course that can change quickly... sometimes I see nothing for months ... then I get a note of a few machines on sale here and there.

    The good thing with a milling machine: it's usually quite salvageable even if it has been seriously neglected.... maybe not highest precision... but workable.

    A big old italian milling Machine I used to own couple of years back (sold it) - power feed, 3-Axis, 900mmx 400mm x 500mm X/Y/Z travel, 2kW main SK40 spindle, lots of tooling, a massive precision Gressel Vice, central lubrification, 2-Axis swivel head, horizontal milling attachement... for 1200$... the only thing needed some work was a mildly worn out X-Axis table lead screw nut... was a "cheap" repair ... and one of the gears for one of the powerfeeds needed replacement.
    didn't even need a new paint job ;)....
    I didn't find the machine over night... took a few month... but they're out there.

    especially these days, when everyone wants CNC ... you can really make a killing on a manual conventional milling machine with a bit of luck & patience
    #52
  13. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Around here is a old wives tale, but i had hear it is a few times what the good/decent machines go directly to auction and exported right away.(I don't care I need a Operational in need of TLC if I have too)

    I have look religiosity every few times a day for a small table size milling machine or a stand alone for 6 years since we move here and only once I found one that was reasonable (MRS something with R8 collets) but the guy stay "No holds, first come first served" So I took the $800 and I got on my motorcycle as fast as Possible (132 top speed almost to wendover where salt flats are) and I got there first and the guy ask me "Where is your truck..??.. I need the machine out of here Now" I calm him down, everythings was going well until two other buyers show up with the money and the trucks..

    Well you get the idea..

    Selling ethics, well around here many did not get the memo..
    #53
  14. EastRoad

    EastRoad Road Viking

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    you'll get lucky eventually...
    for me it was the surface grinder that proved to be of a similar story:

    One day whilst on an errand (with the bike) I see an old surface grinder in front of a garage, outside, all rusty... and beaten up.
    A quick enquire with a lady from that neighbourhood allowed me to get the name / address of the owner.
    So I drove by, it was just around the corner... ringing the door bell, an old man opens up and I introduce myself politely, and ask about the surface grinder.
    He tells me that he had a small machine shop until recently, retired (old age) and then got rid of most of the machines, the surface grinder didn't get picked up and is now waiting for a scrap yard company to pick it up....(usually they pick it up for free, but you don't get any money, they get the metal for scrap value)....
    Anyhow, I ask about the condition, as the machine was out in the rain for a few weeks from what it looked and was rusty and didn't look too fashionable, but I thought I would be able to get it back up working....
    I tell him I could come and pick it up next day. He goes like: "lovely, it needs to be gone soon... so when I can come by tomorrow...?"..
    We agree on 4pm... I drive by with a trailer and a portable crane to lift... and he honestly asks me for 1000$
    Needless to say I was pretty pissed... offered him a 100$ and then drove off without the machine.
    Mind you - before I drove by, the machine would have been picked up by a scrap guy (no money at all)...
    The old guy porbably sensed that I want to use the machine and put it back in working condition and sensed "MONEY.".
    Seriously... shit like that happens...

    Took me about a year of searching before I finally found a nice surface grinder for 500$...
    at 800kg, with a 600x150mm electro magnetic table, powerfeed... it was a good deal.
    Needed some minor repairs (electrical mostly)... and good to go.
    but again, 1 year of looking at used machinery before I found something that would suit my needs and budget.
    It's not a tool I need often, so I wasn't willing to buy something over 1000$


    Auction/export buyers are the worst... I get emails and calls about every other week if I have some machine to sell... if I do and they make me their offer I always tell them to go fuck themselves... offering less than half of what its worth..
    they buy them - apply a fresh coat of paint and then sell it off for a lot more. I can do that on my own, so no thanks.
    Sure they're usually fast at finding the used machinery... this is why I would encourage you to ask your local machine shops.... most guys working in that trade know where machines are available.
    #54
  15. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    My biggest problem now is that we are moving in a year, so moving around a 500pound machine will be like trying to move a block of poop, is pointless, it will cost more to move than to buy it, this will happen to many of my beloved "Machines" is just cheaper to sell them and then hopefully find something similar on the other side..

    Not naming names, but Utah has a strange way of doing things and they have tentacles all over..

    Seriously for some reason none of the good stuff comes on the market directly, it goes to auctions and usually I have no clue what I'm looking at and things happen really really fast too, you need to be a pro to buy like that, or don't really care and buy it anyway and let somebody else deal with fixing them (export market)

    San Francisco and the bay area in general, was amazing, amazingly sad too or the shops were closing and getting better and faster machines (Mostly on lease) but wow deals everywhere, the problem is the cost of space..

    Now wonder all the cool little geek shops are gone now (only the "Burning man Whore" shops are staying so far, but many had moved to reno too, since the desert is so much closer).
    #55
  16. JohnE65c

    JohnE65c Been here awhile Supporter

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    Ricardo,
    It might be helpful at this point to check into one of the machinist websites to get some of your questions answered.
    This one http://www.hobby-machinist.com/forums/mini-lathe-mini-mill-information.220/
    should be a good start. These guys have probably experienced a lot of what you're going through. FWIW, I would stay away from the more "professional" machinist sites.
    #56
  17. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Thank you, very helpful, I'm sure
    #57
  18. configurationspace

    configurationspace delooper

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    Small and almost irrelevant anecdote: I've been using my drill press as a milling machine, but just for wood. It's a pretty vanilla drill press, General International. I've got a Palmgren milling table on it. It does the job and can mill Panzerholz fairly well. It's not as accurate as using a router (for cuts that can be done either way) but it's pretty close.

    But I do notice, the drill press isn't happy with large lateral forces. So when I want to make big cuts in a hardwood I've got to do it with many passes, and it's not always easy to re-trace the previous route.
    #58
  19. EastRoad

    EastRoad Road Viking

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    You'll eventually wear out the bearings.
    if you only do wood, and take it easy, you should be good for a while... but there's only so much abuse the drill press will take ;)
    #59
  20. Ricardo Kuhn

    Ricardo Kuhn a.k.a. Mr Rico Suave

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    Senor maybe is time for you to enter
    Matthias Wandel world of Marvels..
    #60