Is there a LC4 Starter diagram (of internals) anywhere?

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by BlitzBike, Jul 28, 2006.

  1. BlitzBike

    BlitzBike LC4 Pilot

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    I Don't see it on the LC4 thread index or KTMtalk. They just show the whole thing without any detail of the internal parts.
    #1
  2. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    And unless someone took one apart and photo-documented the whole thing... you never will find much of anything.

    [​IMG]

    KTM considers it a replace rather than a repair item.

    C
    #2
  3. ChrisC

    ChrisC Amal sex?

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    Dearest Mister Creeper,

    Could you please write a "how-to" on replacing the starter motor's o-ring.

    Ever so faithfully yours,

    CC
    #3
  4. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Sure.

    [​IMG]

    There ya' go pookie.
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  5. Odysseus

    Odysseus Stoic Philosopher

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    Tell me about it brother, I believe they run somewhere around $115. It wasn't in stock either (surprise). The good news is that it was very easy to replace. I kept the old one, not sure why, anybody need a door stop?
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  6. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Considering servicing a starter in any other form than a complete overhaul... field coils, armature, brushes, labor... the whole nine yards, is kind of a "temporary fix"... $115 for a shiny new starter is a pretty good deal.

    Flip side of the coin... if I was in the official middle of nowhere with a NFG starter, and someone handed me a set of brushes for it and a hacksaw blade to clean out and square up the commutator segments... I'd have the puppy off and apart real quick. :D
    #6
  7. BlitzBike

    BlitzBike LC4 Pilot

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    $115?? Where can I get one at that price? Its $230.53 at KTMtalk.
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  8. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    1 58440001000 ELECTRIC STARTE $230.53

    Looks like Ody got his numbers off a bit... like by half. :poser
    #8
  9. BlitzBike

    BlitzBike LC4 Pilot

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    Seems to me I recall some threads refering to the starter "gear" being the weak link. I see two items that could be construed as a "gear" in the fische.
    (ideler and reduction gear)
    #9
  10. Odysseus

    Odysseus Stoic Philosopher

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    It was a month ago, and my memory never was very good, and its getting worse!
    I actually looked for the damn receipt from Scuderia West, couldn't find it (where did I put that damn thing? Curse you my rotten memory!)
    I don't know why I thought I paid $115, wishful thinking?
    #10
  11. Donkey Hotey

    Donkey Hotey De Jo Momma

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    I think the real issue here is to ask WHY you are interested in the internals of the starter? What's wrong with yours? Terribble clunking, grinding, clacking noise when you try to use it or it just doesn't spin at all? If it's not spinning, are you sure it's not the relay? Absolutely positive the battery is ok? :ear
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  12. BlitzBike

    BlitzBike LC4 Pilot

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    Its been getting more and more sluggish on starts and I have tried two new batteries and it now only gives that clicking sound that sounds like a silenced machine gun. Mechanic says he has a neighbor that rebuilds them but, I find it hard to believe that will be cheaper or better than 230 + shipping and tax to my door.
    #12
  13. Donkey Hotey

    Donkey Hotey De Jo Momma

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    That might be the starter but don't discount some other sources:
    • Failing relay (corroded internal contacts)
    • Bad ground
    • Corroded cables (I've seen cables that looked fine but acid had wicked down the insulation and destroyed them 3" inside)
    I'm not saying that it isn't the motor but most motors fail all at once, not a little at a time. Progressive problems suggest failing connections. Make sure before you buy a starter and find out that's not the problem :baldy
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  14. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    The machine gun sound you hear is a relay contact disc, not the starter itself.
    To paraphrase Greg, who pretty much covered all the places to look, either the relay itself has a faulty magnetic coil, or the contacts are corroded, or the cables leading to it or away from it do not have adequate continuity.

    You have two relays in the starter system, items 37 and 42 in the breakout.

    [​IMG]

    To do a "quick and dirty" relay test, you can look at the schematic and refer to it to bypass one or both relays to see which one is at fault. You will want fairly heavy gauge wire to do this when bypassing the main starter relay (37).
    You can also, if you have a multimeter, disconnect the contact wires, energize the relay and see what you have for continuity thru the closed "power transfer" contacts.
    Most relays will have a continuity across the contacts of one ohm or less... anything more and you probably have a faulty relay.

    [​IMG]

    I'm betting that your problem is nothing more than a connection with less than stellar continuity... like a ground strap, or positive cable from the battery to the main starter relay.

    C
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  15. Donkey Hotey

    Donkey Hotey De Jo Momma

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    Here's another sneaky way to check the cabling and relay:

    Take your voltmeter (you have one, right?) and connect the negative lead to your + terminal on the battery. Take the positive (red) and connect it to the lug on the outside of the starter. Now try to start the bike and watch the voltmeter.

    In a perfect world, the voltmeter would show zero volts but this world isn't perfect. I'd say 1-1.5 Volts while you're trying to crank the engine would be the limit.

    Remember: you're not measuring system voltage in this case, you're measuring how much it's dropping from the terminal on your battery through all the wiring and starter relay, down to the starter. If it's losing more than 1.5 volts, I'd say you have cabling or relay issues. The good news is it probably won't be marginal: either you'll be showing a huge drop or you won't.

    Do the same with the negative side: connect to the negative lead on the battery and the other voltmeter lead to bare metal on the starter case. That one should be nearly zero--MAYBE 0.5V when cranking but that would make me suspicious.
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  16. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    Voltage drop tests Greg? You might be pushing the envelope here. :lol3
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  17. Donkey Hotey

    Donkey Hotey De Jo Momma

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    Ya' know, they're so easy to do that I don't know why everybody doesn't do that first. I actually have a 25 ft roll of test lead wire that I bought years ago. I unrolled it, soldered alligator clips on both ends and rolled it right back onto the spool. It's my 25 foot test lead (no, I'm not kidding).

    The cool thing is I can clip it to the battery in my car or even my motorhome and I can walk around measuring voltage drop anywhere in the vehicle. You haven't had electrical woes until you've had a motorhome. :huh

    The origin of the mega-test-lead was the installation of a pair of Rockford Fosgate 1000 watt amplifiers (in my younger days when I could still hear :ear). Each amplifier uses 195 amps at peak output. When 390 amps can't find a good ground in the trunk of a car, it starts doing ugly things trying to find a place for all that energy to go. It usually starts travelling down the signal cables (not good).

    The same is true of annoying alternator noise problems with car stereos. It's usually NOT the alternator but rather a bad ground between the alternator and the engine, the engine to the frame or the frame to the battery. I once measured a full 0.5V between the firewall and the running engine and the car DID have the proper braided grounds, etc, etc. In the car audio industry the thing they always beat into you is "ground is not always ground."

    Back on topic (sort of) I did similar measurements on the twin headlights on my Adventure. The sad [cough...cough] I mean 'lightweight' KTM wire harness only gets about 10-11V to the headlights when the running voltage is around 13.5V. Yes, most of it is on the positive side but about 0.5V was on the ground side. Those are some bright flippin' lights when they've got full system voltage going to them.
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  18. creeper

    creeper Still alive...

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    A visualization... scene from an old B&W 'B' SciFi flick.

    High above the fog covered moors, a black castle sits atop a bleak, craggy cliff... appearing as to float on a sea of grey and gloom.

    Greg... dressed in a white lab coat, white hair sticking out as though shocked.

    The tall, lean, white clad figure is watching the oscilloscope with madness glazed eyes... wringing his hands together, a twisted smile on tight lips.
    Tesla coils zzzz'ing above the operating table, sparks flying. A wolf howling down below... somewhere on the moors a woman screams.
    A hideously deformed, yet ever faithful assistant makes his way to a wall covered in cobwebs... and heavy cable humming so loudly, you can feel it in your stomach.
    Then, a piercing, shrieking... near disembodied voice cracks thru the electric smoke haze and the deafening thunder of the impending storm...

    " Throw the switch Egor ! NOW !!... Moo Ha Ha !!! "
    #18
  19. Donkey Hotey

    Donkey Hotey De Jo Momma

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    :roflYou've got quite the imagination there Creeper. Me: tall, lean, with hair...you're killing me :jack:oscar:poser
    #19
  20. Adventure Kitty

    Adventure Kitty Tuna Gatita Blanca

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    I'm not hideously deformed [​IMG]

    I think you have us mixed up. I have white fur [​IMG]
    #20