Kawasaki EX 500 Adventure Bike

Discussion in 'Some Assembly Required' started by 11motos, May 7, 2019.

  1. villageidiot

    villageidiot Long timer Supporter

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    basically, the rear hub is wider than the front hub.

    so the angle is different.

    i took a yz250 wheel, and a dr650 front hub, dropped it off at the wheel builder and picked it up 5 days later with stainless steel spokes laced in it.

    i rode it for a year, then i upgraded to a set of warp9 17x4.25" rear, 19x2.50" front wheels on my dr650.

    i sold the wheel to a buddy, he's been riding on it since 2016.

    i guess it works. i don't know what spoke nipples were used, but there's never been a problem. is it correct, no, could it fail, sure. would i do it again, absolutely.

    the issues isn't really where the nipple is into the wheel, but the bowing of the spokes, and not being able to get the tension correct etc.
    #41
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  2. YamaGeek

    YamaGeek Skeletor sparklemuffin.

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    I'm a bicycle mechanic and have built a few wheels in my time. Moto wheels don't do interlacing patterns, the spokes are far too thick for one thing.

    When you build from scratch, and I'm discovering this with my '67 Ducati, there's a particular angle that some rims and spokes, used in conjunction, must conform to. Most D.I.D. and Japanese spec rims and spoke, nipples, are designed for a particular rim and hub and apparently you cannot do a 3 cross pattern on a 2 cross hub and rim. Because of this, ( like the image 11motos posted..) they don't have that ball section spoke nipple and receiving dimple in the rim.

    I'm at this problem right now with the rear 18" wheel of my bike, as I couldn't source the right size for the wheel while keeping to a 2 cross pattern. So I'm exploring a 3 cross using a longer set of spokes that do fit, and I believe the stock Barilla rims and these new spokes with the ball section nipples will work well together.

    Another issue not shared by bicycle wheels, is there are definite differences between inside hub flange exiting spokes, and outside exiting hub flange spokes, the bend to the spoke 'head' varies from obtuse to acute to 90 degrees and these must be matched to the hub before embarking on lacing and tensioning the wheel.

    I should add that this issue is mostly an old school bike problem with drum brake flanges and "J" shaped spokes, which I think can allow for more leeway in their departure angles from the hub to rim. The newer straight run spokes, I'll assume can account for some angle divergence, it's largely dependent upon how much 'hub flange' material the head section has to pass through..?
    #42
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  3. 11motos

    11motos Feral Rider

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    Hi,
    Many thanks for sharing your wisdom with us.
    This is all new territory for me and the more I read and hear from others, I quickly realize how much it really goes into this science of wheel making.
    Initially I considered to machine my own hubs as I have a nice lathe but then I rather make everything work sourcing standard and popular parts so,
    if, lets say, I break something in a long trip, I might find parts from popular machines and replace or rebuild from there vs. breaking something totally unique (custom made) that I cannot source from anywhere.

    Now I am happy they cancelled the initial order of rims since I have more time to make a selection considering all these variables.

    In the hub I have I noticed that the departure angle from the hub has some tolerances so it could potentially adopt rims with variations within
    certain limits and w/o putting additional stresses on the spoke.

    This brings me to the next point. Are any bends that critical if they are properly selected and stressed relieved? like you mention old J shape spokes and possibly 90 degree being the most aggressive type of bend
    and they did ok so if we choose them wisely with the proper bend required by the angle I do not quite get what the downside would be given one understands the angles and can compensate for the differences.



    upload_2019-6-17_19-35-40.png



    The angles are obviously different, the question is how much and would a ball type nipple help?

    I always wonder if there was a bit to finish the holes in the flanges so they will better receive a different type of spoke flanges and give more play
    as they also need to adjust for the proper camber.

    Again I am no expert.

    The YZ hub seems perfect for my project but perhaps the way to go is to order the matching supermoto rims, spokes and disk and be done.

    It is just money, they say. :D
    #43
  4. villageidiot

    villageidiot Long timer Supporter

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    set of warp 9 wheels front and rear will set ya back $1000 ish. plus or minus.

    i took hubs, hoops, and tires to my wheel builder for my sportster and it was $575 for 80 spokes, labor, tubes, mount and balance. given the fact that the rims were $130 each were still talking close to $1000

    i think you should give it a shot, or, find a wheel shop and see what they say.

    its also able to get a rim with the holes undrilled and a wheel shop will drill em the correct angle.
    #44
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  5. YamaGeek

    YamaGeek Skeletor sparklemuffin.

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    I'm thinking that if you're going up a gauge size from the YZ hub, ( and they look like really decent, lightweight hubs..) you could run a drill bit through the spoke holes in the hub to open the angle a little. It would take some precision Mark 1 eyeball reckoning.

    Look closely at your selected rim's spoke nipple 'dimples'. Are they cone shaped or more spherical?

    Spherical would be better if the spoke's nipples match. But just for instance, when I was dissembling my wheels, the day before, I noticed the old spoke nipples were cone shaped but the rims that Ducati selected were more of a spherical dimple shape. But despite that difference, they tensioned them up enough that the rim actually had taken on a bit of a off camber cone wear shape to them. These are steel chromed rims.

    I think that aluminum rims will have a little more give and take. within reason and... If you ever saw Unaweep's handbuilt wheels he posted in the 2018 CSM Peace Party thread, he definitely proved you can over tension spokes and crack the nipple holes in a new set of rims. See if you can get some experienced hand or shop to check over your wheels after you've brought them up to tension.

    As far as bicycle spokes go, us bicycle techies twist and abuse them all the time: In an assembly we often times stress relieve, interlace, use the flange to pre bend the outer facing spokes so they don't arc outwards before you start tensioning. You can get away with it because they're only 2mm thick, ( 14 gauge..) I'm of the opinion that you could probably get away with some minor bending and misalignment, within reason. This is a 500cc bike that's capable of doing over 100 mph in stock form and it does weigh about 400 pounds. Be cautious and consult some wheel experts.
    #45