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Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by dbrum, Nov 9, 2016.
Finished installing rear wheel back on with new Motoz Tractionator Adventure. Couple new pics:
Some preliminary observations on my front/rear Motoz Tractionator Adventure after first 1,000 miles. I live in northern VA. So 50% of my total miles is pavement to get to some country gravel roads. This season...so far...most of the county gravel roads have been brutally hard packed with some spring gravel on top. Like riding ball bearings. Very dusty. So my knoby Motoz are overkill.
I've been riding with both tires around 22 psi. No rim locks. The tires seem noisier than my previous Mitas E07 and Pirelli MT21 Rallycross. Even at 22 psi, the tires make the suspension feel harsh. I've set my Compression and Rebond fork clickers in a 2:1 ratio. I think currently 16 clicks on Compression to 8 clicks on Rebound.
The front tire still does a quick nudge to left or right when I am crossing asphalt center line. I am beginning to think the almost contiguous center knob on front wheel is making tire ride on a ridge. So any slight variation in road, and tire wants to deflect. I also think the rubber compound is much harder than something like Pirelli MT21, Mitas, or Conti TKC80. I hope the Motoz RallZ front tire pattern rides more like the Pirelli MT21.
My general impression is the rubber compound softness / hardness does matter. The obvious tradeoffs are better tread lift or grip.
Not on my 690, but I ran a set of MotoZ Advs on my Africa Twin. They were an upgrade over TKC80s, but I found the front to be very unnerving. It was jerking all over the place on grooved pavement and loose fine gravel was like ice. The rear was much better and wore like iron.
I just pulled a set of Rallz off my 690. I know the bikes are different, but the Rallz were so much better than the Advs on and off road it's like they came from different centuries. The compound is harder, so they still aren't as good on pavement as the TKC80s, but the extra space and smaller, taller treads just work well as an all arounder. The downsides of the Rallz are they are louder and will wear faster, but I got 3775 miles out of mine, granted probably 1500 was highway getting back from the NEBDR or riding to other parts of the state here. The rear was down under 3 mm tread, and the front was pretty severely cupped, but they were still decent and could have done several hundred more in a pinch. Oh, and they are not fun to mount. Really, really not fun. Definitely need to warm them up in the sun and use lots of Rueglide
I just fought them off and wrestled a set of Pirelli Scorpion Rallys on. The front was fine, but the rear seemed to be for a 17.5" rim. I'm going to scrub them in in about 30 minutes. I don't expect to get nearly the mileage from these, probably more akin to TKC80 miles. They look decent for mud season. Next up is a set of Desert HTs.
Hats off to you for doing NEBDR. I've only watched the BDR DVD when it first came out. Some fo the class 4 sections look sketchy. Watching the NEBDR video reminded me of the Poe Paddy Rd. ( PA ) in Segment 7 of MABDR. Now rated expert section.
I know exactly what you mean about the Motoz Tractionator Adventure front. Very squarely when the front tire runs along uneven edge. I am thinking the single big knob on the centerline of tire is causing this. Normally the knobby pattern is like a three legged stool ( stable ). I am hoping it gets better as that center knob wears. I have a set of Motoz RallZ front and rear on standby.
Now that I am experiencing the Motoz Trac. Adventure on my 690, I can compare it to the stock Pirelli MT21 Rallycross and Mitas E07. Both of these tires felt better on both pavement and gravel. So tread depth ( Motoz ) isn't then end all. You have to consider tread pattern, sidewalls, and compound softness. I would put Motoz in the hard compound. Probably why the tires last long. If I were riding a lot more muddy and unmaintained roads, I would say the Motoz would probably do better with all that tread depth. In Virginia where I live, I think a 50/50 tire or something with soft compound like Pirelli MT21 Rallycross of TKC80 would be just fine. Most of what we have is gravel / forest roads. I keep thinking I could shoot a 50 caliber at my Motoz tire and they would keep running on the rim. Hefty carcass. Glad I used a Rabaconda tire changer.
Always a trade off between soft compound tread life and deep treads with hard compound.
The NEBDR was a lot of fun, and the class IVs really made it special. Some of the days were cool and wet and one of the Rallz's downfalls seems to be wet large rocks, probably the hard compound.
I still contend that the Advs front wander/jerkiness is due to the center treads being split right down the center of the tire. When one side of that block touches the edge of a crack it gets more traction and flexes enough to quickly pull to that side. The most stable tires seem have a continuous solid centerline to them, or at least solid center blocks.
The Rallz do very well in mud compared to the TCKs or the small amount of mud I got the Advs into. I've had them through plenty of deep squishy crap around home and on the BDR and I never felt that they were holding me back.
Ok, I did about 70 miles of mixed roads around here. Probably 40 unpaved mix of gravel, hardpack, two track. I tried to get a bit of everything, loose rocks, a couple mud pits, soft dirt, hard dirt, some grass. I absolutely hate the Scorpion Rally rear. My spent RallZ was a better tire when I took it off. This Pirelli just has no lateral grip. It's like water, just rolling downhill, can't keep it on a ridge and can't get it out of a rut. It's really good at drifting out from under the bike on gravel, but not in a fun, controlled way. More of a glad I wore brown pants way.
The front is really good, though. Maybe better than the RallZ was new. I found I was throwing the front harder and harder into turns trying to figure out what the limit was. On the road they are quiet compared to the RallZ, but I don't push hard on pavement, more MSF than SBK.
The rear is so bad I might take it off already. I'm going to give it another shot tomorrow on a longer ride to see if I can live with it for a while.
I am trying a motoz ralz on the rear initially, on the 701. Yep a new take off of the tkc 80, its gonna be a great spare.
I really had no tough issues putting it on; in a field manner with hand tools, though in the shop ( all the difference one needs ).
Anyway I did think it was interesting that, it was oh about or better than a pound lighter, I cannot recall, but did weigh it because of the notice.
The intensional plan was to continue with tkc 80 on front and it seems ok/expected with most, a normally! noticeable slight hold during slow cruise crossing a roadway seam.
I think its a great point on considering the tire compound as mentioned; and its change with simply time and temperatures it wears in to. This with autos or trucks and off road tires I think results in big changes.
I am thinking about pulling the front Motoz Tractionator Adventure off. I hate to do it. Only 1,000 miles on tire. But, like you said, the front just has that twitchy behavior. I was very happy with my stock Pirelli MT21 Rallycross. What are your thoughts on switching the front to MT21 and just keep the Motoz Adventure on rear?
Hey there, I should have been more clear; I am running the tkc80 on the front, and its the oem. Though now running with rim locs I installed.
I thought it was evaluated as pretty darn good throughout and near top on tarmac ( specifically, rain groove roads and this sort ) and less so in the dirt.
So it was strictly from searching around here and there for opinions and testing with, new replacements as for keeping it on front.
This forum is for sure a mainstay for hearing what is many times the best information
I thought I would post update on my Motoz Tractionator Adventure ( MTA ) after 1,000 miles. I have them on both and rear on my 2018 KTM 690 Enduro R.
Yup. The front 90/90-21 MTA behave squirrelly in front. Especially when running along grooves in road. Both paved and unpaved. My bicycle tire on my bicycle feels smoother when I run along a groove in road. This can tap and jerk the bike handlebar. A little more than unnerving. Especially at high speed. I've gone back and read previous reviews online. Everyone seems to concur the front MTA has this odd behavior.
The other thing I've noticed about the MTA is the rubber compound and deep chunky knobby make the off-road riding damping ( suspension ) very harsh. At least compared to Pirelli MT21 Rallycross and the Mitas E07. So clearly having a thick carcass with all that hard rubber isn't better. At least not for me. So I am a bit disappointed. I hate to take them off only after 1,000 miles.
I'll probably try keep the rear and mount either Pirelli MT21 in front or TKC80. Hopefully that combination will address both stable handling and dampening up front. I've heard the tread pattern of the Motoz RallZ handles far better than the MTA. So perhaps I'll keep the Motoz RallZ for long distance trips. I was hoping to ride all the way from Virginia up to the Canadian Maritimes per pandemic.
So heads up if you plan to put a front MTA on your 690. If you do, put the RallZ.
@GF-kam the RallZ is a bit squirrely at freeway speeds on the pavement as well, so just be prepared. It only seems to be this way when it's new... I don't know if it's down the front wearing in a bit, or the rear wearing down (effectively gives more rake to the front end), but it gets better with time. The Adventure might also get better with time?
I recently put a MotoZ Enduro IT on the front of my 690, and I was amazed how much better it felt on pavement at freeway speeds compared to the RallZ. It's a more aggressive tire, so there's a vagueness to get used to, but it's not squirrely or bothered by road grooves. I can't explain it - the tread design tells me it should be terrible on pavement, but it's just not. I don't have many miles, so I'm not sure about longevity yet, but I'm liking it way better than the RallZ so far.
Crap. I have a fresh set of Motoz Rallz on standby. I am hoping the more conventional tread patter on the front RallZ tire will behave like a normal off-road knobby.
Bizzar how the tread pattern on front Motoz Trac. Adventure ricochets off road grooves and pavement unevenness. Almost like the raised charge edges of the center knobs deflect off a ridge. Like I mentioned earlier, my bicycle tire does a better job. Anyhow, I am hoping with more wear in front knobby, the edges blend in with rest of tire.
What are your thoughts of putting a Pirelli MT21 Rallycross or Continental TKC80 in front and just keeping the Motoz Trac. Adventure in rear?
Never used an MT21. TKC80s are fine, the fronts last a good while but they don't have very beefy sidewalls, so just be careful if you air down.
Some years ago I stopped running the same brand/model front and rear - I think this allows you much more performance control. I like the RallZ rear but would never run a MotoZ (trac) front. I like the Scorpion Rally front but won't run the corresponding rear. The TKC80 front is decent enough as a fallback but with a too-soft sidewall IMO. The last F&R set I ran was Goldentyre GT723 but too expensive for me. I say go for it, try some different combos. I've also found that required PSI (depending on riding terrain etc) differs wildly between tyres particularly with different sidewall stiffness. My 2c.
The MotoZ site calls the Trac Adventure 25% road, 75% off and the RallZ 20/80 - for whatever those figures are worth, so I think you have to expect some odd behaviour on variable tarmac surfaces from the fronts. Note that both tyres also come in TT and TL versions - the TT has a lighter carcass and is better suited to the 690. I also haven't tried the MT-21. I think if you are careful on wet tarmac you can run a much more aggressive front than you might have thought... I'm going to try the MotoZ Enduro IT (front) mentioned above at some point.
I've tried Conti TKC80, Mitas E07, E07+, Heidenau Scout, Metzlers, Dunlop 606, and Pirelli MT21 Rallycross on big and small bikes. At least 100K miles combined on F800GS, F650GS Twin, Yami WR250R, and now my 2018 KTM 690 Enduro R. None of these tires make the front jerk and twitch quite like the Motoz Tractionator Adventure. Last thing I want to do is spend a lot of time wondering if crossing the median at 65 MPH is going to slap the handlebars.
Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one and they all stink. Even more so when tires are involved. Let me chime in once more, and hopefully everyone will realize this is just me offering my thoughts.
I would keep the MTA rear, at least for a couple thousand miles. It's relatively quiet, good all around traction, and it's paid for. I thought it was a very good compromise tire. I would rip the MTA front off and recycle it. It's not worth compromising your riding pleasure constantly agonizing over crossing road cracks or coming upon grooved pavement. Besides, it's not that good off-pavement.
Give the Rallz front a try. It's a little squirmy at speed, but it never feels disconnected or dangerous, and has none of the MTA behavior with cracks/grooves/ruts.
I just placed an order for an MT21 rear. I'm getting rid of the Scorpion Rally. Yesterday I was out playing in the rain and that stupid tire was trying to break my leg all day. It was constantly slipping out under any acceleration or braking, getting me crossrutted too many times. So I'm done with it after 320ish miles. Total trash, took quite a bit of fun out of the ride, which is all the reason I need to recycle it.
Well, I swapped the Scorpion Rally for a MT21 RallyCross last night. I went with the 140/80-18 size. Apparently the narrower tires have a less aggressive tread pattern. The Rally was a bear to get off in a 40 degree garage, but the MT21 went on easily enough and no question I could easily get this off and on out in the woods without tearing the tube.
Today I rode about 130 miles of 50/50. It's fully mud season here (Central NY) but there are still some rocky chewed up roads. My first impression of this tire was it is much better than the Rally. It can hold a line under hard acceleration, climb out of ruts and push through deep snotty mud. Compared to the Rallz, though, it's not as good. It spins much sooner and slides around a lot more. It is smoother, though, both on road and on the little bit of hard dirt/rocks, which makes sense for a tire with a much softer carcass.
One thing I really really like about this tire, and it's a big one, is it is very predictable. It took about 15 minutes to figure it out and get comfortable. After today's ride, though, I burned off almost 2 mm of tread from the center. Also, the leading edges of the blocks rounded off very quickly. With all the mud today I think I will shred this tire on a hard, dry day.
Overall, it's a good tire for the price, but it's not going to last me long. I expect I'll get 1500 miles or less out of it. I think that the 690 just has too much HP for the tire, especially if you ride with a heavy right wrist.
Silly Pirelli MT21 Rallycross tire question.
I just received a new set of Pirelli MT21 Rallycross. I don't see a rotational arrow direction on either front or rear tire. Am I missing something? Can go either way?