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LBS-Sidecars USA | A Preview | LBS + URAL Kit for the BMW GS

Discussion in 'Hack Vendors' started by LBS-USA, Jul 16, 2020.

  1. LBS-USA

    LBS-USA Been here awhile Super Supporter

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    Preview | LBS + URAL kit for the BMW GS

    Super excited to preview the protoype of a new chassis! This, an LBS chassis that allows mounting an Ural sidecar body, complete with its nose pivot axle and rear shock shock mounts.

    Ad went a bit overboard on the shock; that's a fully-implemented BMW ESA on the sidecar! Custom wheel hub on the trailing arm allows mounting the same wheel as the bike's rear, fully interchageable,. The rotor and caliper ride on the trailing arm.

    Leading Link Fork handles suspension duty up-front. GS-specific formed 4-point rigging, and purpose-built subframe round out the package.

    LBS chassis, trailing arm, wheel hub, shock tower, rigging, subframe and leading link fork:

    lbs_gs_ural_01.jpg


    Clean, robust subframe:

    lbs_gs_ural_02.jpg


    Best front-end you can put on a tractor:

    lbs_gs_ural_03.jpg


    Here, all the tubular bits:

    lbs_gs_ural_04.jpg


    Fully-implemented BMW ESA shock on the chair's wheel:

    lbs_gs_ural_06.jpg


    The body/chassis mounting system is of the best (and unique) features of the Ural sidecar. The forward end pivots on rubber bushing, clamped to the forward chassis cross-member. The rear of the tub is normally mounted on rubber shock isolator towers (aka "snowmen"). Ad wanted a lower profile, so chose shorter shock isolators mounts instead:

    lbs_gs_ural_07.jpg
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  2. CCjon

    CCjon Gypsy Rider Supporter

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    ^^^ Cost for the package delivered states side?
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  3. LBS-USA

    LBS-USA Been here awhile Super Supporter

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    Hi @CCjon! Ad will be out road testing the rig over the up and coming European summer hoilday break, which begins end of nmonth. Once he's back and caught up on things, we'll cost it out.
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  4. LBS-USA

    LBS-USA Been here awhile Super Supporter

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    Hah! The R1150GS is a fine machine , strong, field-repairable, getting a bit long in the tooth perhaps, but I still love mine! But I'm now a fan of the 2010~2012 R1200GSA "TwinCam". It's an evolved R1150GSA without the complexity of the R1200/1250-LC's. They are a marvel of engineering for sure, guess I'm still a bit old school!
    #4
  5. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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    So my question is with your LL front end is it possible to adjust the trail? I’ve got a Stoker wheel, using a car tire. If I was to slap that on my GSA with your LL, I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t have enough trail. I had a DMC trail reducing triple clamp with the Stoker wheel and I had to remove it as the combination was too much.
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  6. steam powered

    steam powered just a regular punk

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    There is a second set of holes ahead of the pivot for the swing arm, using those 2 it would increase trail.

    All other things being equal, a smaller diameter wheel will reduce the amount of trail.
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  7. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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    Yes but, won’t moving the pivot point change the shock angle and change your suspension’s action? Requiring different spring and or dampening rates?
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  8. steam powered

    steam powered just a regular punk

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    Using some measurements off the pictures, the leverage ratio changes from 1.23 to 1.26 which means a 5% change in effective spring rate. But the spring is also closer to vertical, because the effective spring rate is also a function of the cosine of the spring angle, the change in spring rate will be less than 5%.
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  9. LBS-USA

    LBS-USA Been here awhile Super Supporter

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    @Strong Bad, one of the unique features Ad's original design brought to leading link forks is a limited amount of trail adjustment. In the photos below . . . :


    ll_adjust.jpg


    . . . you can see the double-shear pivot plates. Each has two "axle" holes to allow trail adjustment. The holes are offest from centerline and the plates are asymmetrical. You can reverse the plates and obtrain two additional positions for trail adjustment, so a total of four. Yes, there is also change in shock angle as a result, but at least one has a limited amount of wiggle room to fine tune things.

    ll_adjust_01.jpg
    #9
  10. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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    Nicely designed with the asymmetrical plates!
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  11. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    Almost every Euro builder has at least 2 positions for the pivot. :hmmmmm:hmmmmm
    I've driven leading links now for the last 50ish k miles I've ridden and over 4yrs of use , mystery to me is why haven't the rest of you characters caught on ?

    Mikepa, nice work dragging them (adv inmates) into the current century :clap
    #11
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  12. LBS-USA

    LBS-USA Been here awhile Super Supporter

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    @Strong Bad , my apologies for failing to give a complete reply (and remember, advice and comments for worth exactly what we've paid for them <g>. Yes, I would suspect that the combination of one of @Stroker 's excellent front Advantage wheels and a trail reducing lower fork bridge might be too much trail reduction, and just a wild-assed guess here, but I don't think our leading link would provide sufficient "trail addition" to compensate.

    My first two DMC outfits (both R1150GSA's with a URAL body) originally had the DMC trail reducer on them as I had stock Cross-Spoke wheels all the way 'round. After three local DMC sidecar owners I know had the ball joint pull out of the lower fork bridge, I had them removed and started a search for smaller diameter front wheels for trail reduction instead, which is how I learned of @Stroker and his Advantage wheels.

    For many years, a restored front end, in combination with @Stroker 's wheels, provided enough trail reduction for me.

    But, crap, getting older, and driving my right-hand sidecar rig for five weeks along the fabulous (left-hand drive) Wild Atlantic Way in Ireland last year took it's toll. I found I wanted even more reduced steering effort, so on the way back to Stefan Knopf's (where I store my rig), with the super assistance of @twintwin , I spent a day with Dave at EZS, a day with Remco at EML, and two days with Ad at LBS, and, well, you know the result. I had Ad install a leading link on my rig, ordered two more for friends here in the States, and am now LBS-USA.

    So yes, I am highly biased in favor of a leading link front fork on an outfit. But my advice would be, if you're going to install a leading link kit, remove your after-market lower fork bridge, as as painful as it may be, throw it away. Re-install your OEM lower fork bridge. The stock bridge, with a leading link fork, and @stokerel 's wheel, is optimal. It's what I now have on my R1150GSA in Europe, and will install on both of my 2011/12 R1200GSA TwinCams here at home.
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  13. High Octane

    High Octane Long timer Supporter

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    So with the optimal configuration do you know what the trail is? I’ve been chasing this number for my build.
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  14. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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    Thank you for a honest reply to my questions.

    The DMC lower fork bridge I had installed prior to installing Stoker’s wheel was removed and has been sitting in a box after I found the combination to be way too “twitchy”.
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  15. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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  16. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    Ok Engineers and retired professional men with fabricating background why haven't any of you made a drawing and or figured it out ?
    Mr Dedome rough out for 11/50 GS
    [​IMG]
    Reduces trail from 130 mm 5 " to 45 mm 1.77"
    When Questioned Claude likes to recommend not going much below 2" of trail as he likes more road feel.
    The Dedome mods move the ball joint 3/4" DMC move is over I" pretty fair chance that alone reduces trail below 1.5" .
    The only DMC setup I've driven was DRONE's R12 with a DMC reducer it steered lightly. I guess that DMC knows that light steering makes selling sidecars easier, and more toe say 1.25" makes up for the directional stability loss (tracking) of less trail.
    Claude's philosophy is different slightly more trail and as little toe in as you need to get tracking.
    So back to my questions Octane, Strong Bad where are your drawings and references ? I'm certain LBS can supply them to Mikepa.

    [​IMG]
    There's a 1 3/4" of trail and a tiny front tire, 145/65/15 it was allot of fun, go cart like. I wished I had played with it more needed a damper not for a head shake but just to calm it a bit.
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  17. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    No it's to big to go in the fork there are 135/145/80/15 those are your Stroker wheel choices, I think Strong Bad may have had a 155/80 on his R12.
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  18. High Octane

    High Octane Long timer Supporter

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    I do know where my trail is at because I’ve devised a way to actually measure it. The biggest problem I have with the diagram you post is finding the exact steering head angle on a bmw with a telelever. Have you actually measured your trail or your steering axis angle or are you just referencing the theoretical values for a bmw with a stock fork? Hope this doesn’t come across as snarky but I really would like to know what others are getting for real life values.
    #18
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  19. davebig

    davebig Another Angry Hun !

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    Of course I haven't, I have the diagram(I'm a plagiarist not a fabricator or engineer) , it would take 4 hands some drop cords a couple of squares a long straight edge and a clean floor. I'm amused that nobody publish's drawings of their stuff Claude is a design engineer with CAD experience Jay was import mechanic.
    The EU people need TUV or EU engineering approval have arguably better products .
    I'm bitter and sarcastic based on when I knew nothing I bought a plain GL1100 with a Ural on it over the internet I asked the seller was it professionally mounted he replied yes of course, when I got it I find it had 20" of wheel lead was a bitch to steer and tried to lift the rear wheel going left. Claude helped me straighten that mess out. Allot of the US sidecar business has been let the buyer beware sales, its a painful education, I can get you a list of buyers who where disappointed and went elsewhere.
    So how do you tell the sincere competent builder from the grifter ? You tell me !
    There's a quote someplace from Sochirro Honda to the effect: When the congress started legislating emission standards and fuel mileage I hired 50 engineers, GM hired 50 lawyers. I think it speaks to allot of our problems.:hmmmmm
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  20. High Octane

    High Octane Long timer Supporter

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    start by asking them what their trail is and how they know it. If they post a pic like yours or some other generic engineering drawing ask them how they know their product meets the drawing. Posting the drawing likely means that they understand trail but that isn’t the same as knowing what it is. Claude has stated several places to measure form the axel to a point on the bike before and after the mods, find the difference and subtract from the published trail. Likely as good of an answer as there is. Others I suspect have learned what has worked and therefore repeat it without actually measuring what the trail actually is. So who’s a grifter? Maybe the one that doesn’t know what his trail number is. Or at least what he wants it to be.
    Me, I mounted a laser to the axel and found when the laser stops swinging an arc, must be the steering axis point projected on to the floor. Drop a plumb bob from the axel center and measure to the laser point. I think that should give the as built trail. Now load the bike up and squish the suspension, who knows! Dedome has done the work on a stock bike To calculate theoretical trail but I wonder, like you, if anyone has done the work on a LL bike.
    #20
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