Least expensive bike with traction control?

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by Keithert, Jan 1, 2015.

  1. PeterW

    PeterW Long timer

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    Mate, I ride in all weathers, I used to ride on ice in NZ, I'd *still* rather have TC than not. I didn't dump the bike on the slime but it was all too close.

    Pete
    #21
  2. riverflow

    riverflow Half Built

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    Every recent car I've seen has a traction off feature, even our mini-van. Haven't seen an ABS off, but in a 4 wheeled vehicle I don't know why you would want to.
    #22
  3. steve68steve

    steve68steve Long timer

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    Yamaha Super Tenere has traction control.

    There have been amazing deals on leftover 12's and 13's still sitting at dealerships: in the $9000-ish range, even.

    That's cheaper than a new VStrom. Given the choice between a $10-12k VStrom and a $10-11k Super Tenere with shaft drive, traction control...
    #23
  4. khager

    khager Long timer

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    I didn't believe you, so I eBayed it!

    Sure enough buy it now for $9399 brand new 2013, 0 miles Ten ear.

    I see a 14 V-Strom 1000 non-adv for $10998.

    Seems like a no-brainer to me!

    Unbelievable deals on leftover models this time of year.
    #24
  5. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    sorry, I don't see that

    yes, it will help a hamfisted rider control his bike better, that is not learning, that is the machinery doing the control

    for the rider to learn, it must be done manually by the rider
    #25
    bajaburro likes this.
  6. popscycle

    popscycle Fahren Away Super Supporter

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    Yup, having TC made a recent foray on a snowy, slippery, icy mountain road almost relaxing. Wouldn't be without it. It would have been interesting to have some "experts" along who have a felt need to put down TCS to see how they did in comparison with the same or similar tires (e.g., A3).:D It really is like the tired old ABS argument all over again.
    #26
  7. abhibeckert

    abhibeckert Long timer

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    Do you really think traction control is going to save you on a slime covered water crossing?

    I doubt it, I think more likely it would make things worse just like ABS would. Doing a wheelspin or locking up a wheel under brakes on slime will instantly dig through to the concrete underneath, giving you some grip. The electronic aids will stop the wheel from slipping and you'll be riding on slime all the way across instead of having at least part of your contact patch be on bare concrete.

    In the ABS thread somebody posted a video demonstrating that front + rear brakes with ABS active gives you less stopping power on gravel than just rear brake only with ABS disabled on a BMW. I think that would be 10x more true on slime than on gravel, and would also apply to traction control.

    Personally I'd just get off the bike and walk across if there was any risk of slime though. I've seen too many people drown crossing creeks to take the risk. All it takes is half a foot of water and the bike landing on top of you and you're going to drown, and I'm reminded of a day when I was 19 years old and crashed *twice* in one day riding through what looked like inch deep water but turned out to be much deeper and sent me over the handlebars both times.

    I've never ridden a bike with traction control so I could be wrong, it seems to work well on an all wheel drive car, I've been up some seriously muddy hills on a Subaru with road tyres - it didn't slip at all on a muddy hill where a dirt bike with knobbies would have struggled to find traction. But I don't think that system can be applied to a one wheel drive vehicle. It directs power away from the slipping wheel to the other three wheels, but on a motorbike you haven't got three other wheels to take up the power - all you can do is just kill the engine power altogether which is often exactly the wrong thing to do - especially on a bike where killing power will shift the weight around and could lead you to tip over. Yuck.

    I understand traction control if you want to accelerate as fast as possible, computers are better at that. But we're not talking about a race bike here are we? My feeling about traction control is people see how well it works in a car and assume the same can be done on a bike, which I personally don't think is possible.
    #27
  8. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    why do you assume there is concrete under the slime ?

    sounds like you have never ridden on anything other than paved surfaces
    #28
  9. abhibeckert

    abhibeckert Long timer

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    Is this slippery enough for you?

    [​IMG]
    IMG_0605 by abhibeckert, on Flickr
    #29
  10. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    where is the concrete you instantly dug into
    #30
  11. abhibeckert

    abhibeckert Long timer

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    About two feet under the rear wheel... the bike isn't sitting on the bottom of the mud, it's floating on the engine guard. Took me half an hour to get the bike out, if I stood next to the bike to try and pull it out I would've sunk in almost up to my waist and got stuck myself. At one point I was laying on my stomach on the edge of the mud puddle digging out my boot that I'd abandoned in there to escape.

    In the end third gear wheelspin while pulling/pushing as much as I could while standing a few feet away from the bike was enough to slowly inch the bike forward out of the mud. I wasn't strong enough to get the bike out without the wheelspin, I would have had to walk to the nearest town (~5 hour walk) and come back with a 4WD to tow it out.

    Point being, in truly slippery situations like mud or slime or sand you need to spin the wheel or lock the brakes to get any grip. Even on asphalt, 10% wheelspin is the sweet spot, with more grip than no spinning at all. Traction control on a race bike/car will deliberately create that amount of wheelspin.

    Not of that any of this matters. What matters is the riding conditions the OP is planning to ride _his_ new bike in, bringing me back to my original question which was "why do you want traction control?".

    The only answer anyone has given me so far was crossing crossing what sounded to me like a concrete slime covered ford, where I'm pretty confident (but have never tested) traction control will only make things worse. Everyone I know with a traction control equipped bike recommends turning it off if they are going to ride in slippery conditions.

    Somebody else said to prevent a wheelstand... which I don't understand either, if you've got a bike that powerful surely you want to be able to do wheelstands? And anyway, you can just release the throttle straight away and the wheel will go back down, no harm done.
    #31
  12. 2tallnwide

    2tallnwide Long timer

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    The State I live in can fine you $1000.00 for lofting the front wheel on the first offense. That is one reason, it's not that I can't keep the bike from doing a wheelie, I just enjoy doing them, always have (see vid in signature). The TC just takes the place of my wife when she isn't there to slap my helmet.:lol3

    Next is preventing an oops moment, especially with a passenger, load on back, or simply wanting to full on hammer thru the gears without lofting the front wheel.

    The cool part is being able to disable the TC for the times one does want to spin the rear, or wheelie thru the gears. Besides, like most everything else, it's better to have it, and not need it, than to need it, and not have it. :wink:

    YMMV of course.
    #32
  13. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    the most common reason for wanting traction control would be wet painted lines and wet steel manhole covers
    #33
  14. Bazgab

    Bazgab Been here awhile

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    Exactly this, I commute year round in all types of weather. Traction control is fantastic in the wet for the reasons above. I know it has made some potentially butt puckering situations into total non-issues for me. I also appreciate it limiting my front tire to about an inch above the ground when I accelerate hard.

    I do turn it off for anything that is not paved, definitely unnerving when you want more power when you start losing traction and the TC starts limiting the power instead.

    Like ABS, I just disable it when I am in a riding situation when I don't need it but I am definitely glad my bike has TC.
    #34
  15. Wraith Rider

    Wraith Rider Banned

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    And you're right to be sorry when you can't do things manually while having a safety system ready to catch you if you fail.
    Now it would be interesting to find out where this psychological barrier in your mind comes from and how you can get rid of it.

    Again a good example for traction control being a great system to help learning to control your bike better. Not everyone is so lucky to be able to do wheelies from the first try on. Have a look on tons of youtube videos with backflipping riders.
    #35
  16. Brian E

    Brian E Adventurer

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    people here seem to confusing a traction control system (TC) with a anti wheelie system (AWS) both are different system but both will cut power to the rear wheel. a good TC system will allow a wheelie to be performed but will cut power when traction is reduced.
    the trouble with most TC systems around is that they compare frount to rear wheel speed if there within tolerance everything is ok if there out of tolerance it starts cutting power if you used another method of inputting the speed of the vehicle into the TC system you could use a sensor firing down to the ground measuring the speed but easiest is probably use a GPS chip for accurate ground speed compare this with rear wheel speed you will then get a more wheelie friendly TC system.
    #36
  17. Wraith Rider

    Wraith Rider Banned

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    Most TCS have AWS integrated like most ESP have TCS integrated in cars, so it's fair enough to assume when someone talks about the one, the other is meant as well. Like the anti stoppie system that comes with most ABS.
    With more sophisticated systems, the integrated feature is deactivable.

    Sounds like the easiest way to produce a system that doesn't work, as inaccurate and slow as GPS works.
    #37
  18. khager

    khager Long timer

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    I agree, just think when steep hills or twisty roads come into play and GPS is measuring position or distances.
    #38
  19. randyo

    randyo Long timer

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    actually GPS (differential) does very well with slope distances/speeds, but that doesn't really matter much, GPS just isn't reliable enuf in urban canyons, forest canopy and heavy cloud cover

    TC and ABS need much more refined measurements of each wheels rotational speed, ground speed doesn't really matter
    #39
  20. woofer2609

    woofer2609 Less flow, more Gnar

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    Apparently this Bosch system has radically changed how/when ABS is applied, and is being applied to TC as well.
    http://www.bosch-presse.de/presseforum/details.htm?txtID=7020&locale=en
    I know, it's a manufacturers website, but I did read a review in a magazine (Motorcycling?) where they tested one of the Ducatti's and said it was unreal what you could get away with. The lean angle aspect is crucial for us motorcyclists.
    Personally, I'd rather have as much safety equipment and not need it as i can get.
    Not really concerned about the wheelie thing. Nice if you could cut the system off for off-road pursuits.
    This is a much better explanation:
    http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/popular/bosch-msc/
    #40