Leather vs. Textile 60mph lowside shredding test

Discussion in 'Equipment' started by Gruesome, Oct 15, 2011.

  1. cblais19

    cblais19 Long timer

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    I own that Spidi Ergo Pro suit. It’s level 1 overall, but made level 2 in everything but abrasion. The Clover Tekno suit was level 2, thought it was level 1 but I was thinking of the Road. If I remember correctly from reviews, the Tekno was impressive, but was heavy, stiff, and lacked ventilation. Still a good argument that textiles can make high abrasion resistance without using any fancy branded coatings/textiles.

    I believe the halvarssons & aldi ce2 textiles were not a fully functional jacket/pants combo but a jumpsuit like abrasion resistance layer. I mean, you can wear a full suit of the stuff Bull-it puts in their clothing, and it meets the old ce2 standard (the new one requires impact protectors to make the highest ratings), but I don’t consider them in quite the same category of gear. YMMV.
  2. Anders-

    Anders- 690R

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    The textiles are getting better for sure, but they're still no match for leather when it comes to abrasion resistance.
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  3. istadniy

    istadniy Ivan the Quite OK

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    Maybe there are different Ergo Pros, but apparently at least some of them are well over Level 2 on everything, including abrasion:
    [​IMG]

    >The Clover Tekno suit was level 2, thought it was level 1 but I was thinking of the Road. If I remember correctly from reviews, the Tekno was impressive, but was heavy, stiff, and lacked ventilation.
    But if we compare oranges to oranges, leather jackets that pass EN 13595 aren't exactly pajamas either :)

    >I believe the halvarssons & aldi ce2 textiles were not a fully functional jacket/pants combo but a jumpsuit like abrasion resistance layer.
    Aldi is a separate pants/jacket combo, the abrasion resistant layer isn't some separate jumpsuit. Yes, the abrasion-resistant layer in it makes it a cool weather suit, but at that price what would the leather equivalent look like?

    The main problem with the Motorrad article and ones like it is, to put it short, the purpose being entertainment, rather than statistically valid comparison. To put it long:
    1) Sample selection is just ... wow. Three price ranges seem to be the only criteria. How did Rukka make it there? Were they trying to pick an expensive suit from a manufacturer with dubious abrasion resistance claims? Why not pick something expensive that really was certified? Don't know what the leather suit is, but again, why were those ones picked as single representatives of huge categories. What if they picked the Aldi suit as their cheapest textile? Would the headline be "160 EUR textile suit performs as well as leather suit ten times more expensive" (just as sensationalist, and just as unproven in generalisation)?
    2) Testing process. Even aside from dubious equivalence between their bag in a suit and human body in a suit. This is just not how it is done statistically. Sure, sliding a suit over tarmac is, maybe, a way to simulate A crash. One crash. The problem is that every other suit over tarmac will, again, simulate A crash. One, unique crash, not comparable even to the other five suits in this same test. There are just too many variables. The way you get over that, scientifically, is either you design your experiment so that they are all controlled (surface roughness, pressure points, etc, etc), or you just run many, many iterations with poorly controlled variables and hope that "many, many" is enough for uncontrolled variables to cancel out.

    In the end, if leather suits are so good, why are certified leather suits just as rare as textile ones?
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  4. cblais19

    cblais19 Long timer

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    The vast majority hof Dainese suits/jackets are level 2 certified. I think the problem has been that until recently the certification was basically optional so few manufacturers submitted them. RST, a budget British brand, has all of their leather jackets certified to the new standard at the highest level. These are cheap, basic, jackets. Yet to see any textiles make it to that, excepting the BullIt lined denims.

    Re: ergo pro - on Spidi website & on the tag on my ergo 365 jacket it shows level 1 *shrug*.
  5. istadniy

    istadniy Ivan the Quite OK

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    New standard at highest level is less abrasion resistant than the old one at level 2. So yes, you have seen many textiles achieve that and better than that :) The whole point with the new standard was that manufacturers complained that the old one mandated suits that are just too heavy for most riders, so now they have a less strict one, with a finer grading system in hopes that now most gear will finally get certified on a single scale, facilitating informed choice by consumers.

    That table is off Spidi's current website, so at least that says level 2. https://www.spidi.com/eu_en/ergo-365-expedition
    "This jacket is a CE 13595-1 level 2 certified riding equipment and sits atop of the performance range in terms of safety, comfort and technology."
    But maybe the US ones are different for some reason, or something like that.
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  6. cblais19

    cblais19 Long timer

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    My bad, I was reading the description on the American site which incorrectly shows level 1. Checked the tag, and it is indeed level 2 as you noted.

    It’s also not that heavy of a jacket, a good portion of the weight is the old style hard armor spidi used, and all the extras they put on it. I’ve ordered the X-tour Evo jacket, which according to their site uses the same materials (but was never sent in for certification).

    If Clover and Spidi can do it, shame on other companies for not figuring it out - or sticking so slavishly to goretex shells without adding better abrasion resistance.
  7. pHudson

    pHudson still riding

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    This interests me. I thought CE1 and CE2 were mainly claims about the armour, so assumed lesser brands simply put high-rated armour in a relatively cheap jacket as a marketing ploy. If the rating relates in some cases to the armour and in some to the jacket, how do you interpret the numbers?
  8. cblais19

    cblais19 Long timer

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    Different CE specifications. 13595/17092 (previous/current certifications) pertain directly to the garment, and are required for the item to be officially sold as "motorcyclist protective gear". 1621-n are the standards for motorcyclist armor, you'll see different years after that as well since it's an evolving standard.

    If you just see a big generic CE label sewn on to the jacket, it could be anything. Rukka was caught out at one point using the label when they were certifying the dye fastness of their fabrics IIRC. Companies who certify to the protective standard are required to include a tag showing the exact level of certification, and in my experience European companies include separate booklets showing the test results for armor/garment as well.
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  9. taosgsr

    taosgsr Been here awhile Supporter

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    I know ... I know, I dug up a really old thread and resurrected it but I have have a few questions and instead of asking I did a search and this one popped up, still not quite answering my question. A few weeks back I made a huge mistake on my 1190. Too much throttle, cold tires, in a turn and of course as all ways I have the TC system shut down (that most likely would have saved It) and yep, I low sided. Luckily not a fast speed (my best guess @ 20-25) the bike is fine other than shiny new scratches in the upper and lower crash bars and the left bumot. My gear on the other hand is not. It’s still cold enough in the mornings that I am still wearing my leather jacket and it is fine other than a few scuffs and a ripped seam, that I will need repaired (maybe leather shops should be considered “essential” for motorcyclists) when shops open back up. My pants are Rev it (not sure of the model) and they have served me well for about 10 years and a butt load (or an ass ton? not sure) of miles off-road and on road adventures. The resulting slide from my boneheadedness burned the nylon textile but did not create a hole however it did rip the stitching at a seam and that material got pretty shredded. They are not going to be repaired, my look at textile pants/jackets are they are made to save you once unlike leather that will last and can be repaired. So now I have to replace them and reading up on new textile materials it sounds like 1000d is the best you can get. However looking into buying 1000d material Jackets and pants is they don’t seem to exist, I haven’t seen anyone making them even Aerostich roadcrafter suits are only 500d Cordura, many people swear by them and have stories to back up their claims. So what am is missing? I see a lot of terms from Klim and other brands about some super fabric but no tests on it or people talking about how well these hold up in a slide on pavement. I really don’t want to ride in the summer heat is leather pants and they don’t seem real practical when 50% of my riding is off pavement.
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  10. Peanut_Buttery

    Peanut_Buttery Been here awhile

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  11. cblais19

    cblais19 Long timer

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    We're all just wanking off in here out of bordom and too much knowledge really. Just about any 'AA' rated textile pant will protect you fine in your average 30mph lowside, probably better then what you had from a seam perspective too. Very few textiles will be usable again after a a crash though. Level 2 armor is probably the biggest factor in reducing your injury potential in all crashes.

    The Rev'it Defender Pro series of jacket/pants is 750d nylon with 1000d impact zones. Aerostich only uses teh 1000d overlays in their R3 suit as far as I know. If you have a price range and desired feature set, I'm sure we can give you some ideas.
  12. taosgsr

    taosgsr Been here awhile Supporter

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    Too bad that Motocap rating system doesn’t have more listed
  13. Peanut_Buttery

    Peanut_Buttery Been here awhile

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    I agree. The MotoCAP website says they’re continuing to add more pants, jackets and gloves. But that doesn’t help today, unfortunately.
  14. MZ5

    MZ5 Been here awhile

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    I believe most of Motoport's sales are of 1000d Cordura product. Whether or no, they sell 1000d Cordura jackets and pants, if that's what you're looking for.
  15. taosgsr

    taosgsr Been here awhile Supporter

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    I’ll take a look at them again, last time I was looking they reminded me of Aerostich nice stuff but little venting. I kinda need good venting around these parts.
  16. cblais19

    cblais19 Long timer

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    Theoretically they should be able to add more vents if you ask? A set of pit zips and the ability to open cuffs nice and wide and those 1000d jackets would be great - especially if they double the material in the impact zones.
  17. taosgsr

    taosgsr Been here awhile Supporter

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    I’ll have to ask. Great idea thank you!
  18. FuriousGeorge

    FuriousGeorge Been here awhile

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    Motoport uses uncoated 1000d Cordura so it should breathe pretty well on its own. You can contact them about adding vents too. Also check out Assero Gear. I'm not completely sure if they're still in operation or not or how much shipping to the US would be but they also use 1000d uncoated Cordura.
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  19. cblais19

    cblais19 Long timer

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    “Breathe pretty well” is relative. It’s nowhere near something like Cordura AFT, but it doesn’t give you the clammy feeling of PU coated nylon. Even with the strips of mesh up the arms and across the chest, the mainly 1000d uncoated Assero jacket I had was quite hot once things got above 80.
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  20. Tripped1

    Tripped1 Smoove, Smoove like velvet.

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    Thing is the two are basically mutually exclusive.

    My most comfortable hot weather gear is a leather Vanson Pro-perf two-piece....and that is in comparison to a A*/KTM rally set, Darien, Overlander and Rukka Air Power....the rukka moves more air most likely but its also hotter because it doesn't start to slow down heat from the sun.

    Wouldn't recommend that vansonin the dirt though.
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