Lightning Motorcycles

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by chainslap, Jan 7, 2019.

  1. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

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    March.

    We will know in March.
    #21
  2. eatpasta

    eatpasta Lawnmower Target

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    Probably, probably a lot, probably not
    #22
  3. jas67

    jas67 Long timer

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    Fixed it.
    #23
  4. south

    south Been here awhile

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    Fixed.

    Worthless bit of PR filler fluff.
    #24
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  5. Gone Troppo

    Gone Troppo Somewhat bemused observer Supporter

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    Will it be ridden by a unicorn?
    #25
  6. Bolzen

    Bolzen Been here awhile

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    Again, at what speed is that range. Seriously doubt it is 150@150.
    #26
  7. Drop_Center

    Drop_Center Long timer

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    #27
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  8. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Correct. Just like any EV (or gas powered vehicle), the faster your ride/drive, the shorter the range.

    .. as indicated in the article that jas67 posted
    #28
  9. ultrarnr

    ultrarnr Been here awhile

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    Bolzen,

    I am sure the 150 mile range is based on the SAE range test, the same one the LiveWire and Zero uses. Scroll back through the LiveWire thread here and you will find the details as I posted them. Basically the SAE test is conducted on a dyno. There is no wind resistance, no rider weight and no moving the mass of the motorcycle down the road factored into the range calculation. So there is no way a real person, riding on a road is going to get that kind of range.
    #29
  10. LuciferMutt

    LuciferMutt Rides slow bike slow

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    Interesting. Competition is good. I love how they have firmly revealed the price as a (not so) subtle jab at HD's ridiculous price on the Livewire.
    #30
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  11. mhpr262

    mhpr262 Long timer

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    The range of a gas bike isnt measured at full speed either. But the worst thing about the specifiactions is that it is very unlikely that the 12,998 dollars will get you either that range or that speed. I am willing to bet good money that the bike will come in different battery size versions, and that the quoted price is for the version with the smallest battery, while speed and range are for the version with the largest battery.
    #31
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  12. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

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    You can have any one of the three options...

    M
    #32
  13. Bolzen

    Bolzen Been here awhile

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    Yeah, it just not that much different. Driving full throttle, uphill, against strong wind, etc on my moped i only get tenth of l/km mileage drop whereas one good start on EV can eat 5% of reserved capacity. So 20 such take offs and call it a ride.
    #33
  14. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    No.

    I learned long ago in my electric car that even if I'm way low on charge I can still give it a full throttle squirt any time I need it. It's not the short bursts that do you in, only sustained heavy drain. So if your trip is mostly uphill into a headwind you may have a problem. You won't even notice multiple short bursts.
    #34
  15. _mtg_

    _mtg_ Been here awhile

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    A moped is also a bad example, as those are at pretty much full power output anytime they are moving.
    A more appropriate comparison would be a full size ICE motorcycle, where it makes a pretty massive difference in fuel economy based on how aggressively you ride it. Eg, in the past on my old CBR600, I usually got around 40mpg. Track days were around 12mpg.
    #35
  16. Bolzen

    Bolzen Been here awhile

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    I understand you want not just compare ICE but necessarily a special example of it. So take the worst of ICE and the best of EV and voilĂ  -- it's getting close. :-) To begin with, an EV doesn't have a cruising speed that is considered ordinary for an ICE for the given range.
    #36
  17. octopusenvy

    octopusenvy gravel grommit

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    You can put deposits on legacy bikes if you ask them :)

    I offer this as a ZERO SR owner...the bike is going to change the way we look at electric motorcycles. It's good for uptake and it literally jolts the market into faster production of options. These will be mainstream. In 10yrs of development from now an ICE bike doesn't stand a chance, aside from nostalgia and fixation on a noise. I still own a couple, love riding them, but who wouldn't like 600km range (or more), instant ridiculous speed, fast charging in 20min or less, no oil changes (brake fluid perhaps), no rebuilds, no servicing, just tyres and brakepads (and rotors occasionally)?

    As for Lightning, they are offering specs to entice as that is the game. And game on! I expect ON BOARD DCFC (DC fast charging...energica already offers this so don't expect an off-board charger, just plug into the dc charging infrastructure worldwide). Also, 150mi is definitely a 'mixed' range offering and likely with their higher capacity battery. Yes, you get options. The current base price is no extras and an 11.4kw battery. There is a 20kw offering and lots of available extras that will bump the listed price of 12,998 to over 20grand. But that's fine, just like any other vehicle you can pay for more options if you like. Lastly, the fairing and the comfort...aerodynamics are KEY to range when using limited power. I was never a fan due to potential damage and anytime I had to do maintenance or engine work. But for electric it's essential to maximise range (look up the Vetter fairing) until such time as battery density/capacity is so high that a naked bike can get several hundred kms open road speed without aerodynamics. That is several years away yet. As for comfort, there are many bikes with fairings that offer a more upright position. A buell 1125, an EBR 1190RX, and several jap bikes. You can also drop your pegs, change bars, add screens, etc.

    The new ZERO SR/F coming out in February has a lot to live up to, but I suspect it will fall short in many ways. Lightning has come from left field (baffling many, but some of us saw it coming), having never released a production bike to the masses before. I genuinely hope they can cope with the huge demand, and wish them all the best. It's a game-changer and catalyst moment in the world of electric motorcycles.
    #37
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  18. chainslap

    chainslap BlessedarethesicK Super Supporter

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    Not surprised the carbon edition will be released first. But a little surprised that there's no release date for the standard edition. Only that they will be produced after the carbons.

    Wish they would give more details or a better teaser.
    #38
  19. ultrarnr

    ultrarnr Been here awhile

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    How big of an impact the Strike will have has a lot to do with what style of motorcycle it is. If it is a sport bike it will not have a big impact, if it is a standard or street fighter it will have more of an impact. But lack of a dealer network will also have a huge impact and will limit sales. Lightning is in the same category as Bell Customs Cycles which makes several models of electric motorcycles. Both companies produce bikes one at a time based on a customers order. Neither has done volume production or has a dealer network. BCC makes an electric cruiser that you can get a 33.7 kWh battery for and looks far more like one would expect an H-D electric motorcycle to look like than the LiveWire yet hardly anyone has ever heard of them. There is no question Lightning knows how to generate interest in a product. But it also generates high expectations and time will tell if Lightning can live up to them.
    #39
  20. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    DC fast charging (DCFC), also known as Level 3 (L3), does not involve an onboard charger (though the bike's BMS has to really be on its toes during fast charging). A charger turns AC grid power into whatever DC the battery needs. The bigger the charge current, the bigger and heavier (and more pricey) the charger. DCFC usually is made up of a very expensive installation on a concrete pad that takes big-time grid power, converts it to DC and has logic that determines the vehicle's needs (voltage-current profile) during the handshake at plug-in. DCFC bypasses the vehicle's onboard L2 charger and connects directly to the battery pack.

    Lithium generally uses a constant-current, constant-voltage (CC, CV) charging profile. Between approximately 20% and 80% of full charge, the battery can typically accept as much current as it can deliver during discharge. Put all the individual battery cells together into a pack, and that's a lot more power than onboard or stationary plug-in-the-wall chargers can deliver. So DCFC was created.

    The battery pack is as happy as a clam during this high-rate current feed. (With the BMS keeping close watch on individual cells in case anything gets out of line, because bad stuff happens Very Quickly at high currents.) As charging progresses during the CC phase, individual cell voltage climbs steadily. When it reaches its limit (around 4.1 V), the charger senses this, switches to CV and maintains the 4.1 V (or whatever) constantly. The cells aren't fully charged when they first hit that max voltage - there's maybe 20% left to go. As charging continues at CV, current steadily drops and charging gets slower and slower.

    This is why you sometimes see fast charge times "up to 80%." That last 20% takes some time. And BTW, all of this applies to L1 and L2 charging as well, just with a lower current ceiling, so longer charge times.

    So a Lightning Strike doing a DCFC in only 35 minutes seems questionable. Where's that lengthy CV phase? Maybe they only mean to 80% charge, but there's also something else in play here.

    The life of a lithium battery is greatly enhanced if you limit charging and discharging between maybe 20% and 80%. (Which can vary somewhat depending on the particular battery chemistry, which seems to be advancing and changing daily.) That essentially means your battery pack may (or may not) have more capacity than it allows you to use, but that makes it last MUCH longer, which both users and manufacturers like. It also means that during DCFC, you may be able let loose with max current and just stop at 4.1 V (which will then settle back to maybe 3.8 V resting), meaning your charge "profile" is just CC. Or stop at a lower voltage. Or run a shortened CV phase. Or, or, or whatever the battery provider and/or vehicle OEM decide is the best idea for those batteries.

    So basically, Lightning's claim of "35 minute DC charging" is not enough information. For all practical purposes, it says your longer-distance rides will include stops that can be 35 minutes or less if you use DCFC, but it's not clear how much of your normal range you get back in that 35 minutes. It might be all the miles you normally get on a charge, or only 80%, or something in between.
    #40
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