List of gps incompatible with 2019-04-06 roll over bug

Discussion in 'Mapping & Navigation' started by dddd, Apr 13, 2019.

  1. dddd

    dddd Long timer

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    #1
  2. dddd

    dddd Long timer

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    Zumo 660 (firmware 5.10)
    Symptoms:
    - always wrong date time on boot (aug 21st 1999, 19h59), even if acquired on previously.
    - sunset/sunrise are wrong
    - acquires wrong date (in aug 1999).
    - doesn't offer "automatically" in time setting
    - recorded tracks' dates are wrong.
    - world clock app cannot provide times.

    I anticipate they could allow setting date+time manually, not just time (helps simulation mode too).
    Without a UI change, they would have to detect the epoch (the 20 years block) currently in effect from some marker in the filesystem (like the most recent date of any .img file.)

    Workaround: none yet.
    #2
  3. rswift-ebay

    rswift-ebay Been here awhile

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    @dddd Sir. I have a Zumo 660 and you can click on the time in settings and set manually. I also have a 665 and both devices came up with the correct time when I booted them today.
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  4. HarveyM

    HarveyM Long timer

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    Odd
    Zumo 660 firmware 5.10 with lifetime maps (current map & recent software update):
    - Correct date & time on boot April 13th; (checked in world time map).
    - sunset/sunrise wasn't checked.
    - acquires correct date (month, day).
    - offers "automatically" in time setting
    - recorded tracks' dates not yet checked by me.
    - world clock app can provide times.
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  5. dddd

    dddd Long timer

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    I know that panel, but unfortunately we cannot set the date manually.

    Interestingly, the roll over date was april 6th, previous one was aug 21st 1999; today is 7 days later and my gps says it's aug. 28th. This is too well fitting the symptoms to ignore. I'd love to reinstall the firmware but garminexpress doesn't show that option (only reinstalls the maps).


    Yes, really odd.
    I think we could have boiled it down to firmware but you say you have 5.10 (which goes back to june 23 2014).
    see https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=4469

    I've done a painful hard reset; still show the issue. Not due to setting afaict.



    So, based on some articles, it seems to be a know trick to detect the epoch by looking at files timestamps.
    I presume you have an extra sd card, since the garmin maps stopped fitting on the device a while ago.
    If you don't mind, can you answer these questions:

    a) can you paste the result (with datetime) of "dir" of BOTH "garmin" folders (ex: E:\garmin and F:\garmin) once connected to pc? (or "ls -l" if you are a linux/mac user). If it could be that simple, or if it shows something unusual, that would help me.

    b) My device was activated in 2011. When was yours?

    c) can you paste the MD5 cheksum of your e:\garmin\GUPDATE.GCD file (or other drive)?
    On windows, a console command "certutil -hashfile e:\garmin\GUPDATE.GCD MD5" will tell you that.
    #5
  6. HarveyM

    HarveyM Long timer

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    Internal garmin folder:
    Created May 14, 2018 Modified March 21, 2019
    Gupdate.gcd MD5 checksum 969ea927ecfd415a2a24c38983d36375

    SD garmin folder
    Created June 16, 2009 Modified March 29, 2019

    I bought the 660 used in Oct 2017 & registered it then. Not sure when it was originally activated.
    #6
  7. lkraus

    lkraus Long timer

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    Just to verify (like checking for gas when an engine won't start), are you using this outside in clear view of the GPS satellites?
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  8. dddd

    dddd Long timer

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    > Gupdate.gcd MD5 checksum 969ea927ecfd415a2a24c38983d36375
    Thanks.
    Great. Same here.


    > are you using this outside in clear view of the GPS satellites?
    Yes. I always wait until it acquires satellites.
    Just to be fully complete in the tests, I went also out riding yesterday before all that talk, in case the motorcycle cradle might have made any difference.

    I'll be contacting my local garmin pusher tomorrow... If I can upgrade to a 590 I will probably do so, despite loosing the lifetime FM traffic feature the 660 has.
    #8
  9. millican

    millican Been here awhile Supporter

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    Delorme PN60. Garmin stopped supporting these when they bought the company.
    GPS still works. Time of day is correct, but anything relying on the date is incorrect; such as tide, sunrise, etc.
    I just use a simple text editor that adds 1024 weeks to the dates in any gpx files I pull off of it.
    #9
  10. dddd

    dddd Long timer

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    @HarveyM
    Another question for your specific zumo660, if you go to
    tools: settings: system: about: software versions
    which versions (all of them) do you have?
    Thanks.
    #10
  11. HarveyM

    HarveyM Long timer

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  12. dddd

    dddd Long timer

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    (about zumo 660)
    Ok. Same here.
    FYI, the old webupdater, despite not being pushed by garmin which favors garminexpress, can actually reinstall the zumo660 version 5.10 firmware. So I did, but it didn't solve the problem. I re-ran the garminexpress aftewards and also no update to do and no change. The good thing is that it removed one more hypothesis: I though that the firmware dates would trigger a proper epoch detection.
    See https://www.spirent.com/blogs/positioning/2018/january/gps-rollover-week
    By running the webupdater to reinstall, all the .img files are now past the april 6th 2019 (i.e. april 14th 2019). Yet the gps still thinks it is aug. 1999.

    Calling the support now.
    #12
  13. HarveyM

    HarveyM Long timer

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    My 660's serial number starts with 380; is your's an earlier unit? (I know the Zumo 550 had changes throu it's lifecycle)
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  14. dddd

    dddd Long timer

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    Very interesting, my zumo 660 serial starts with 368...
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  15. dddd

    dddd Long timer

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    (Zumo 660)
    Well, that is it.
    Called local repair guy. No Support, no fix, no exchange, no upgrade.
    Called garmin. No support, no fix, no exchange, no upgrade.
    Zumo 660 is no longer resolving current date, even with latest firmware and they have no fix.
    Screwed (at least with unit ids starting with 368...).
    #15
  16. HarveyM

    HarveyM Long timer

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    According to this your Zumo will be usable. It will just affect timestamp tracks, sunrise/sunset incorrectly (if you believe Garmin)
    "For GPS devices that are affected, after the rollover occurs, an incorrect date and time will be displayed. This incorrect time will also be used to timestamp track logs, compute sunrise and sunset, and other functions that rely upon the correct date and time. However, the positioning accuracy will not be affected."
    https://support.garmin.com/ms-MY/?faq=zWQY6Z2kFiAuY9kDnDBgZ6
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  17. dddd

    dddd Long timer

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    I agree with the symptoms, but by end of june,

    a) the screen will flip to night mode by around 5pm until 7am (which means I will have to flick day/night mode manually all the time)

    b) and the worst, it will switch to standard time in early july (thinking it's november). That wrong TIME (not just date) is just not acceptable. It might even still do the old DST shift in october prior to the 2007 rule change, who knows...
    #17
  18. readonly24

    readonly24 Been here awhile

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    Also my 660 is affected. I'm afraid we need a new firmware.
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  19. Dan Diego

    Dan Diego Long timer

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    Would be great if a simple firmware update could address this issue, but Garmin appears to be flummoxed about how to go about the fix.

    Like @HarveyM stated, at least the positioning accuracy won’t be affected.
    #19
  20. dddd

    dddd Long timer

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    At this point, I`m told by garmin they will not work on that.
    It would take serious pressure (dunno how) to get them to change it (like some law).

    The only hope I have is that a garmin dev (former or not) anonymously fixes and deliver a .gcd patching the firmware.
    As far as I can guess, there should be a software api call to obtain the current date. Since the old firmware doesn't seem to rely on current file system timestamps to detect the epoch, a constant is probably hardcoded. That constant is probably the one number to hack. Worst case is the date decoding is in the chipset (non-hackable because not software - that would be surprising) or intercepting the call to reimplement it would imply major hacking of the code. Of course, reverse engineering garmin is illegal and all.

    Given we live in a world of planned obsolescence, garmin is very happy to sell you another device because of that bug. Zumo 660 was introduced in april 2009, 10 years ago. Even if it was discontinued a few years back only, I don't know what legal claim we could invoke because claiming a reasonable lifespan longer than 5-7 years is hard to defend (according to how it goes for TVs).
    #20