Loctite

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by lightsorce, Sep 9, 2007.

  1. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Rust just like galvanic corrosion will take place when a certain set of ingredients is present.

    Threadlockers are an anaerobic chemistry. The liquid or stick (if you're using a stick) lubricates the threads as you introduce a clamp load on a widget.

    Anaerobic chemistries cure to a hard thermoset plastic when in the presence of active metals (rusts, tarnishes, corrodes, or holds a magnet) when air is removed.

    In order for a threaded fastener to experience rust-lock between the nut and bolt, an air space between the two components must be present.

    And since actual metal to metal threaded engagement is only 15 to 20% for class 2 threaded fasteners that leaves us 80 to 85% of air space.

    Water loves to wick into this air space and cause corrosion. The water finds a nice comfortable home and begins to rust.

    Once threadlockers cure in between the nut and bolt the water can't displace the cured thermoset plastic and cause rust.

    In addition to putting the brakes on rustlock, threadlockers give you the added benefit of giveing you a predictable breakloose force and prevailing loosening force.

    Galvanic corrosion happens when two dissimilar metals are present. If you remove one of the ingredients of the problem you've addressed and fixed the problem. You can either use fasteners made of the same substrate OR remove the airgap which allows the galvanic corrosion to occur. Threadlockers fill the airspace in between the thread engagement and stop galvanic corrosion.

    I only recommend using anti-seize on applications that exceed the upper temperature ranges of threadlockers which is normally 300F or for the high temp products 450F. Applications on a bike relate to the exhaust system and mounting hardware.

    I am ADVriders very own unofficial official Loctite factory rep., Dancing with the Stars Finalist, and chief spiritual advisor to Orenthal J. Simson who doesn't play well with others.

    And I approved this message.

    Dirty
    #21
    Roktman and keepshoveling like this.
  2. R-dubb

    R-dubb Dubbious Adventurer

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    Good job :clap

    Can't decide if I like the explanation or the OJ part better.

    How you been?
    #22
  3. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Been great. Much better now that I discovered a broken side plate on a rather expensive X-Ring Chain, filed a warranty claim, and got a speedy delivery containing a brand new Z-Ring chain from the package purveyors dressed in brown.

    Word.

    Word to the wise. Please inspect each link on your chains early and often because stupid hurts.

    Dirty
    #23
  4. datchew

    datchew Don't buy from Brad

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    Thx for the education.

    So what's the rule of thumb for use? For anti-sieze it's as little as possible. How bout the blue stuff?


    P.s. Don't pick on OJ just cause he killed his wife. :lol3
    #24
  5. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Looking back a few posts back, you'll see the metal to metal content percent for class 2 threaded fasteners.

    This figure is right around 20%. It's funny because when I ask even the saltiest mechanic in the bunch no matter where I am, he'll say this figure is more like 80 to 90% which is completely off base.

    When we use a threadlocker we're trying to stop the nut from rocking back and forth and also trying to stop the nut from loosening from thermal expansion and contraction.

    Threaded fasteners can have a higher percentage of actual mechanical threaded engagement, but years back, fastener designers realized rust lock would be a much greater problem if this engagement ratio was increased.

    We're trying to fill in that 80% airspace with some sort of material to support the nut and keep it from loosening.

    Sooo, how much threadlocker? You want to put 3 to 4 threads wide, all the way around the circumference of the bolt. You also want to apply the material on the area of the threads where the nut will finally come to rest once a clamp load has been introduced.

    Applying threadlocker in blind-hole applications is entirely different. I'll explain if anyone is listening.

    Anti-Seize...
    Use it in high heat applications (higher than 300 to 450F which is the upper operating limit on threadlockers) like the exhaust manifold studs and threads on a spark plug. Believe it or not, these are the only places I use A/S on a bike.

    How much to use? Anti-seize the living crap out of that bolt. Well, not really. A visible coat is needed.

    Anti-Seize is nothing more than grease and metal dust or some other high lubricity solid. With A/S the grease cooks off or evaporates and metal dust is left behind which gives you the added lubricity to remove pesky nuts and bolts.

    Dirty
    #25
  6. datchew

    datchew Don't buy from Brad

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    Bring it.


    And if your fingers aren't tired yet, what about internals or fasteners that WILL be exposed to lubricants.

    My only experience with this stuff is using on custom race car builds, and we only used the red stuff. So if the blue is a "softer" hold, + the corr. preventative features, i'm all over it.
    #26
    RandM likes this.
  7. R-dubb

    R-dubb Dubbious Adventurer

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    I try to avoid the red except in locations I can easily hit with a torch to melt later. That stuff is a bitch to unwind without damage potential. Blue is good, and now it's even better since the dirty man just sold us a few more cases...:D

    BTW, I like anti sieze for spark plug threads. I only put it on every now and again. Seems to still be there when ever I pull plugs to spin the crank for one reason or another.
    #27
  8. datchew

    datchew Don't buy from Brad

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    looks like I lost him.

    Bump to repeat the question about exposure to lubricants.
    #28
  9. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    Sorry for the delay in responding to the most recent questions.

    I was knee deep in a rather detailed response to the blind hole and the lubricant question, fat fingered something and lost the whole response.

    Blind Hole Threadlocker Applications:

    A blind hole is a threaded female hole that does not go all the way through a substrate. This hole has a bottom.

    If we put a liquid threadlocker on the male threads of a bolt and then thread the bolt into the female threads the threadlocker on the male threads gets pushed out and off of the threads in the hole by the air trapped inside of the hole as the male fastener displaces the air pocket. This action leaves the threaded engagement with no threadlocker.

    Instead, apply threadlocker down the side of the female threads inside of the substrate. Some say to fill the entire hole up with threadlocker. Doing so is not neccessary but will help me buy more land in Aruba.


    Threadlockers exposed to Lubricants:

    New threaded fasteners come to us lightly oiled to serve as a preservative.

    We buy threadlockers in a liquid form, but once we apply them to a bolt and assemble the fastener, the liquid turns to a thermoset plastic which is impervious to fuels, ethylene glycol, oils, lubricants of all sorts, and since the area of threaded engagement is completely filled with a hard plastic the assembly is impervious to moisture which creates rust-lock.

    If you are working on internal engine components and are using a threadlocker to keep it together, clean and degrease the threads. Compatible cleaners and degreasers are the party line, but any Electrical Contact Cleaner which is residue-free is grand.. I like to use Electrical Contact Cleaners because they evaporate so quickly, but remember to use safety glasses as this solvents will bring even a manly man to his knees if it gets into his eyes.

    Just remember to give the threadlocker time to cure before adding oil, or cranking the beast if at all possible. 24 hours will give a full cure, but if it can cure overnight, it'll almost be ace.

    I am ADVriders official unofficial Loctite factory rep and I approved this message.

    Dirty
    #29
  10. datchew

    datchew Don't buy from Brad

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    cool. thx much
    #30
  11. R-dubb

    R-dubb Dubbious Adventurer

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    I figure your fat fingers fit into many blind holes, but knee deep is another matter entirely. :evil
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  12. boatworker

    boatworker Slow Old Guy

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    Dirty,

    Thanks for all the info. I really enjoy it when you chime in on these threads.

    A question. Since the air space between the threads is filled with this plastic that hardens, would the Blue be an effective sealant for pipe threads as opposed to teflon tape or one of the liquid pipe dopes?

    I had to reconfigure the fittings on a propane regulator on a custormers boat the other day and it looked like they were assembled using red Loctite or something similar. It was a real bitch getting them apart. I had never thought of using it instead of pipe dope, but from your explainations it seems like it would work well.

    Thanks,
    #32
  13. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    You're absolutely right about using something that is labled as a threadlocker as a thread sealant if you have to use what you have.

    I've heard too many nightmares about folks destroying parts while attempting to disassemble them after someone else has used a red threadlocker for assembly. Just remember Red anything when it comes to threadlockers means it'll be a screaming biotch to remove.

    While you could use a blue theadlocker as a thread sealant, there are better choices. My workhorse is 567PST. Reliable thread root filling up to roughly 2", You can reposition parts up to roughly 3 hours after assembly, Service Removable (behaves like a blue threadlocker), won't gall stainless, 400F, 10,000psi, plus the added lubricity of 10 micron Teflon particles.

    Being aware of Teflon particle size in any threadsealant you use is extremely important. Most every brand thread sealant you run across that is white contains Teflon particles whose purpose is to add assembly lubrication. Most of us don't know how large these teflon particles really are.

    Sooo, what happens if you have some sort of fine filtration hydraulic system, something that's 5 microns absolute, and we're using either the 567PST or some other Brand X. Major expensive damage will likely occurr due to the potential restrictions.

    Imagine trying to shove marbles through a screen door while thinking about particulate size.

    A fine thread hydraulic/pneumatic sealant like the 545 is the suggested thread sealant in all applications, even stainless, for any system with filtration finer than 10 microns.

    I am ADVriders very own real live unofficial official Loctite factory rep, giver of technical support.

    And I approved this message.

    Dirty
    #33
  14. datchew

    datchew Don't buy from Brad

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    on that vein, would the blue or the 567PST work on airhead petcock attachment threads? i.e., is that stuff resistant to gasoline?
    #34
  15. datchew

    datchew Don't buy from Brad

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    ps. great thread.
    #35
  16. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    As your spiritual advisor and chief purveyor of machinery adhesives, I'd go with the 567 for the simple reason that it's a heavier bodied material. It's toothpaste thick and stands up just fine to any type of fuel or oil.

    Like any sort of gasketing, threadlocking, threadsealing application it's strongly suggested you start off with clean dry threads.

    If a blue threadlocker is all you got, dog will hunt.

    Dirty
    #36
  17. boatworker

    boatworker Slow Old Guy

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    How important is the activator when using the 567?
    Most of my stuff is potable water fittings with pressures under 100psi. Some gas (propane) again around 100psi. Max pipe size is 1".

    Thank you.

    Thank you very much.:clap
    #37
  18. dirty_sanchez

    dirty_sanchez Dirty_Sanchez

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    If you are talking about using Primer N, you're adding an extra step that's really not needed. 100 psi is chicken feed, 1" dia NPT or straight cut threads will be fine. 567 is NSF approved and goes well with corn flakes.

    Using Primer N or the Primer T are both primers that are solvent based, a killer cleaner/degreaser along with copper salts. Why Copper? The copper is a very active metal which when sprayed onto an inactive metal surface like stainless overloads the substrate with active metal ions that cause the anearobic product to cure.

    So, why to use either of the Primers listed above?
    1. Clean a substrate
    2. Speed the cure to get the equipment up and running faster
    3. Activate an inactive metal, like stainless, cad plating, galvanized, aluminum, etc.
    4. Overload the substrate with copper ions for larger thread gap applications (like a 2" NPT fitting)

    When piping gets upwards of 2" in dia., this is when we start seeing flanges because the thread roots are too large to reliably seal well enough to get any sort of pressure resistance.

    Sometimes we might use a primer in colder temperatures (Louisiana has 3 of these days per year) to kick start the curing process.

    Any of the anaerobics like threadlockers or threadsealants will stress crack plastic piping faster than you can shiver a timber, so only use those products on metal fittings and threads. Clean dry fittings and threads.

    567 is a great catch-all choice for plumbing a boat that handles gasoline, diesel, potable water, grey water, oils, etc. Go to loctite.com and search for the fluid compatibility chart for more specific liquid compatibility.

    Dirty
    #38
  19. boatworker

    boatworker Slow Old Guy

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    OK, I am convinced. Off to Grainger on Monday to pick up a gallon. :D

    Thanks,
    #39
  20. Watercat

    Watercat . . . gravity sucks

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    Uh, okay this stuff is great and a necessity . . . . .

    So, does anyone have a mail order source for BLUE LOCTITE that is, let's say, cheaper than my local hardware store?

    Thanks.
    #40