Lost 6th.

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by kamanya, Jun 25, 2006.

  1. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    I had to go do a conference 2 hours or so away for the last 3 days, I chose to ride there.

    Not far from the house I lost 6<SUP>th</SUP> gear. No warning, no strange noises. Although I was wearing earplugs, I always keep an ear on the engine.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    It will change up to 6<SUP>th</SUP> straight from 2<SUP>nd</SUP> or 3<SUP>rd</SUP> but as soon as you use engine braking it will jump to 5<SUP>th</SUP> and stays stuck in 5<SUP>th</SUP>. Then it needs some work to get it down a gear which turns out to be the real 5<SUP>th</SUP> . It will then not go back into 6<SUP>th</SUP> no matter what you do. So if you want to get it to 6<SUP>th</SUP> again you have to go down the gearbox to 2<SUP>nd</SUP> or so and then gently back up again. But no engine braking just gentle roll offs using the brakes to slow the engine so that a bit of torque is held on the gear.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    What really scared me was that going down a notoriously bad pass the back stepped out big time in the wet when it suddenly changed from 6<SUP>th</SUP> to 5<SUP>th</SUP>.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I am pissed off as I have had more than my fair share of shit with this bike. I have had the gear selector forks changed under warrantee, which required a complete splittingof the casing to get there. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    It goes in to the dealer on Monday.

    Anyone eles even heard of this happening to these bikes?
    #1
  2. k7

    k7 Almost retired....tick..tick..tick..

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    If sounds like the dealer goofed the repair the first time around. Good luck with them on the second.
    #2
  3. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    <TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 2888261" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>k7</TD><TD class=alt2>If sounds like the dealer goofed the repair the first time around. Good luck with them on the second.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    I am not so sure, I have a feeling that there is something that was wrong from the beginning of the bikes life that is causing this.

    Gearbox problems on these things are rare, and I have never even read of a problem similar to mine. I have just gotten unlucky. It is a factory issue I am sure.
    #3
  4. k7

    k7 Almost retired....tick..tick..tick..

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    Could be but the dealer should have fixed it the first time around even with factory issues. I agree - appears to be very rare though. What are the lemon-laws like there? Is there a chance for a new start for you?
    #4
  5. 9nine0

    9nine0 Formally NineFive0 V2

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    How can you have a damaged shift fork and not damaged gears? Seems maybe the dealer overlooked a worn gear the first time he/she was in there.
    #5
  6. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    The shift forks were fine it was the rollers on them that were damaged. The bike has three; one was fine, the other had a roller missing and the last one's roller was oval.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    They couldn't work out conclusively how this had happened. The bike used to get false neutrals between 3rd and 4th and between 5th and 6th. The 5th and 6th one was the worst as it would rev in neutral but collect 6th before I could catch it with the clutch. The strain I think of whacking 6th destroyed the rollers, that's my theory anyway. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    The gears, drum and the rest of the stuff in the gear box was measured and photographed and deemed to be in perfect order. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I checked the stuff myself and it did not even look worn, (and I am a mechanical engineer).<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    So, now I am hoping that they will be mystified enough to send the engine back to KTM and give me a new one. <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I don't see myself being too miffed if they have run out of 950's and send a 990 engine by mistake.<o:p></o:p>
    #6
  7. YOGOI

    YOGOI Prick

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    I was going to suggest try'n to get all this stuff replaced, but it sounds like you are on top of it.

    Seems like a high posability to me also.
    #7
  8. HappyGoLucky

    HappyGoLucky Goeie Grys Giftige Gert!

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    Sorry to hear this. As you know, I had a similar problem recently. However, opposed to serious advice, I just kept going. Drained the oil, cleaned my steel filing filled sump plug and all that stuff (a freken huge amount - compared it to yours, and dare I say, I had more?) and guess what? She just keeps going and I can shift mostly with perfect results.

    I have found a sometimes neutral between 5 and 6, but its not an often found thing so I am thikning that perhaps you did have either

    a) A lemon to begin with how bout a full warranty and a collection of a SEnduro (go see them at KTMWC)

    b) The mechanics screwed up. There is a chap (cecil penny racing in montague gardens) who has done this before, and I know he has done it successfully)
    #8
  9. AntWare

    AntWare Lost In Translation

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    Kamanya, you could check your oil drain plug, if anythings missing it could be stuck to the magnet, this might let you know if it's spmething serious or not.
    I think somewhere down the line they changed the shift drum, i'm pretty sure they have a new part number. I've seen the old and new side by side and the new one has less material machined off of it.

    Good Luck mate
    #9
  10. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    Hmmm, 'spose this would cause a bit of a problem...

    [​IMG]

    Well now we know.

    If you bike misses 6th as stated above then this could be the reason why.

    Despite this, I really do think this is highly unusual, there are big dealers out there who have never even seen the inside of a gearbox. I know, I personally asked a few around the world.

    My dealer looks after about 60 of them and this is only the third time they have gone into the gearbox and two of those where mine.

    KTM are replacing everything in the gearbox.

    I see normal service returning shortly. Yehaa!
    #10
  11. idahoskiguy

    idahoskiguy Long timer

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    What was the cause?
    #11
  12. RAGrote

    RAGrote Fishin w PICO

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    The initial failure can be speculated upon but nothing solid.

    I would think something else would be broken/bent if the user caused this and.... what the hell would a rider have to do to break that, there?

    I'm guessing it was faulty from day one and just decided to fall apart.

    IMO, of course.

    Glad you found it:clap :clap

    I can pound mine and it just laughs at me cuz I'm a pussy......:lol3
    #12
  13. BLUE(UK)

    BLUE(UK) Long timer

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    KAMANYA....my mate has the same problem right now and i actually rode his bike last night and it rode like a bag o' shite.(yep it's black).

    I shall forward this link to him and hope he feels better.I must say though that his is due to be sorted by our local dealer.
    #13
  14. YOGOI

    YOGOI Prick

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    [​IMG]

    Thats just how mine looked. So, did they miss it the first time, and reopened it ?

    Mine was due to a real hard miss shift, and the bike pop'n into gear while the RPM's were up. The dealer fixed and covered everything.
    #14
  15. wsmc99

    wsmc99 Been here awhile

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    Friend of mine has his in the shop right now for the exact same thing.
    They cited material problems even with the replacement parts.
    #15
  16. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    This is all my conjecture and is not at all from KTM or their subsidiaries.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Cause: Tolerance issues in the gear forks causing missed shifts.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    How: If the gearbox tolerances are slightly out and a shift is not done correctly/positively a false neutral can be found between 5th and 6<SUP>th</SUP>. This causes the 3<SUP>rd</SUP> and 4<SUP>th</SUP> sliding gear (part number 600.33.003.000) to not connect the dogs/slots on either side of the 5<SUP>th</SUP> and 6<SUP>th</SUP> idler gears (part number 600.33.015.000 and 600.33.016.000) for a split second. The dogs on the this idler gear, due to engine vibration and free movement then hit the slider gears dogs and whack the gear home into 6th. Apart from creating immense force in the dogs and many other parts, the gear, with the attendant fork, experience a strong sharp lateral force. This force is transferred through the fork to the rollers that sit in the drum guides and they in turn transfer the force to the drum guides’ side wall. At the point where this happens, the guide wall is relatively thin and with enough force or repetition causes;
    a) The wall to fail or,
    b) The 1-4 and 5-6 forks to bend (part number 600.34.001.000 & 600.34.003.000) or,
    c) The fork rollers to deform or,
    d) All of the above.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Because of the relationship between the gears (3<SUP>rd</SUP> and 4<SUP>th</SUP> sliding gear, sliding 5<SUP>th</SUP> gear, sliding 6<SUP>th</SUP> gear and idlers 5<SUP>th</SUP> and 6<SUP>th</SUP> gears and idlers 3<SUP>rd</SUP> and 4<SUP>th</SUP> gears), this is why there are often issues with false neutrals between 3<SUP>rd</SUP> and 4<SUP>th</SUP> gears too.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>

    The tricky thing is a bit of a chicken and the egg story; were the forks bent from the factory or were they bent through misuse? As I have shown above it is possible to bend the forks through the gears but the shift lever is attached to the drum and though the rollers sit free in the guides, with enough of a shock force through the lever it is also possible to transfer enough force through the drum and then to the forks to bend them. <o:p></o:p>

    In my case my first missed shift came within the first 100k’s of the bikes life but I was running it in and hadn’t dropped it to be able to create a destructive force through the lever.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I think that the 950’s gear box is so well designed to some high tolerances that it is an extremely rare thing, but as shown a few combinations of events can produce the failure that I experienced.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I just got unlucky.<o:p></o:p>
    #16
  17. velcrometer

    velcrometer Adventurer

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    Kamanya,

    I have the exact same problem that you are experiencing. After waiting weeks to get part 60033003000 (3rd/4th gear) from Austria, the dealer is now reassembling my bike. However, it looks like I'll have to pay for it since I'm out of warranty.

    You said that KTM is replacing everything in the gear box for you. Are you within your warranty period, or are they giving you a good faith free repair?
    #17
  18. Norfolk and good

    Norfolk and good n00b

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    This is my bike Blue is on about. It started when I was in france and had been riding hard for some time (against a gale) I started to find a faulse nuetral between 5th and 6th. It was only now and again and I put it down to big boots and being tired.

    When I rode it with Trainers and normal bike boots I still had the same problem, but now it was getting more often and to get 6th is a hard lift with the boot. On occations it has jumped out of 6th.

    It is going in to the dealers soon to have engine dropped (and hopefully new frame) so will have gearbox examined then. Mine is still under warranty until October - thank God
    #18
  19. kamanya

    kamanya Andrew to most

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    <TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 2961565" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>velcrometer</TD><TD class=alt2>Kamanya,

    You said that KTM is replacing everything in the gear box for you. Are you within your warranty period, or are they giving you a good faith free repair?




    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
    Velcro, I still have till November 2007 for my warranty to expire. So they are fixing it under warranty.

    I am suspicious only that gear is being replaced, it is pretty robust and I would have thought that there would have to be something in tandem with that gear to have gone wrong too? If the dogs are worn then there only two causes that have something to do with the alignment of the gear;

    a) There is a mechanical fault - forks, rollers or drum guides
    or
    b) The operators fault - crash shifting while trying to do clutchless shifts. (but then if this is the case the other gears should show the same problem, one does not muck up clutchless shifts just in one gear all the time.)

    Have they checked the forks and rollers properly. The forks can look fine but be very slightly bent. I am not sure how one would check this though, if once they have put it back toegether and it still gives problems or misses gears then you know it was the forks. To check, I suspect one would need the blueprint tolerances measured with the fork on the shift rail.

    If you have never really understood what is happening in there, this java applet may help.

    http://home.cfl.rr.com/genecash/transmission_applet/java3d_webstart.jnlp

    It is exactly what a 950's gearbox looks like, even down to the placing of the gears. You can grab the picture and swing it around to check it out. An amazing demo.

    You can see what that 3rd/4th gear does when changing from 5th to 6th. It neatly shows just why it has be an issue not with the gear but the forks/drum/rollers.




    Norfolk

    I wish you luck, my advice is to take it to a very good dealer and take photos of the bits when they get it apart. It is not something that goes wrong often and have a good look at the drum guides, rollers and the forks.

    They should find damage to something but the important bit is to understand the cause. As mentioned above the cause is often not that apparent.
    #19