Luna cycles Sur-Ron Electric trailbike

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by dogsslober, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. smdub

    smdub Adventurer

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    Yeah, 'normal' riding its great. Its the slow technical type stuff I'm trying to improve.

    This thing continues to be a hoot. Haven't had this many bruises/scrapes in a while. It encourages trying really crazy stuff. 110# you can just whip around so easy. Everyone at the office wants one now.
  2. mousitsas

    mousitsas Long timer

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    I believe the throttle is calibrated as such in order to conserve battery. Maybe, just maybe if it is converted to be more aggressive the battety range will plummet.
  3. ctromley

    ctromley Been here awhile

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    I haven't been following this thread in great detail, but I believe others are not experiencing the same throttle problems. This may be a quality issue.

    As for battery conservation through throttle mapping, understand that power is power. Effective use of that power is a very individual thing. Many EVs, including my car, have an 'e-mode' (or some such marketing name) that is intended to soften power application by limiting wasteful transitions, otherwise known as sloppy throttle control. I've been on forums where some will swear by the effectiveness of such e-modes. In my car I never bother with it, putting it in the most aggressive mode, mostly because that's where regen braking is a bit stronger on my car. When I want it to, my car sips power just as well as, or better than, others' do in e-mode, so I get just as good efficiency and miles per charge. And I get all the power I need when I want it, something that e-mode makes problematic. I get a better experience, simply because I'm reasonably good at throttle control. Many people aren't. It's not that hard, just takes a little practice and the desire to do it.

    It's important to distinguish the difference between tech that improves the tech, and tech that mitigates the nut behind the wheel (or handlebar, as the case may be). Ride modes, throttle mapping, etc. are a minor effect. If range plummets without an e-mode, the fundamental problem is not really with the throttle calibration.
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  4. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

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    Based on my direct experience with chinese engineers - I'm still entirely dubious that there's any thought whatsoever to throttle mapping in a low-cost bike/moto like this... If there has been thought given to this I think it would only be because it was initially super messed up and they had no choice
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  5. smdub

    smdub Adventurer

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    My stock headset has play. Which is 'better': The Cane Creek or the new tapered one (at half the price)? I've had very good luck w/ CC on mtn bikes, yet I've read somewhere that someone took the CC off for the new tapered one and said it was 'better'. Having never held either in my hands I'll have to defer to those that have.
    Edit: I now found and watched the Luna video about the new tapered style. Sounds like it's the better long term solution. I'll order one..

    Just thinking out loud here: I see that someone fit a Shinko SR241 rear tire in 2.75x19.

    They *ALMOST* got the 3.5x19 to fit. Kickstand and chain clearance the issues. Kickstand is easy enough to fix (or remove). I'm wondering if one could re-dish a rear wheel to create enough chain clearance. I have a Park truing stand for building wheels. Shaving side knobs would be the last resort. I would think the wider tire would do noticeably better at trials type crawling-speed stuff. A spare wheel w/ 3.5" and 60T sprocket would be pretty convenient to swap in. Shame Tubliss doesn't make a system for a 1.4" wide rim (spec is 1.85" minimum but maybe it could be shoehorned in.)
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  6. kiwial

    kiwial Allweatherrider

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    Re-dishing first, because being Chinese wheels they probably (surely) need re-tensioning anyway.
    .
    .
  7. dentvet

    dentvet Long timer

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    Regarding the throttle, I think it is a protection of the components. The controller is limiting the amps when the motor is at zero rpm. You can twist the throttle wide open into the steep part of its curve while holding the brake lever. The brake switch disables the throttle completely through the controller. When you release the brake lever, the controller doesnt just dump whatever amps the throttle position is calling for. Its not like you are dumping a clutch.

    You need to fool the controller into thinking the bike is in motion in order for full amps to be dumped into a stalled motor.

    They claim that the light bee and the new boom bee can climb 45 degree inclines. However, if you have your bike stopped on a steep slope, it won't be able to begin crawling forward at 45 degrees. I had mine on a 25-30 degree ramp and it barely started to chug forward from a standstill. meltdown protection?
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  8. ctromley

    ctromley Been here awhile

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    Possible, but I doubt that was their intent. That would require a very specifically-designed throttle assembly. The much easier and cheaper approach is to use an off-the-shelf linear throttle and program what you want in the controller.
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  9. kiwial

    kiwial Allweatherrider

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    Quote:
    "They claim that the light bee and the new boom bee can climb 45 degree inclines. However, if you have your bike stopped on a steep slope, it won't be able to begin crawling forward at 45 degrees. I had mine on a 25-30 degree ramp and it barely started to chug forward from a standstill..." -
    .
    And that is one of the (few) times one wishes for a (2 speed) gearbox.
    Even the Alta had thermal problems at the Erzberg Extreme Enduro with Lyndon on it.
    And it being the main advantage of a Mid Drive (with derailer and gears) over a Hub motor setup on a E-Mountainbike.
    .
    It would be handy to have a readout of the motor (and battery and controller) temperature on the dash.
    .
  10. ctromley

    ctromley Been here awhile

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    I get what you're saying, but I'd still resist the urge to add a gearbox.

    My thinking on that has evolved to include the possible benefit of a 2-speed gearbox when the vehicle covers a really extreme range of road speed, like up to ~120mph and higher. (Though I strongly prefer an electrical equivalent - for example, an extra motor is a more direct source of more torque, and can be cheaper and simpler than a trans.) For more normal speeds, certainly including off-road riding, there's still plenty of gear reduction (like 5:1 or greater) to keep the motor spinning nicely if the vehicle is moving at all. You may dump some amps to the motor at stall, but you're very unlikely to keep it at stall more than momentarily.

    A liquid cooling system for an EV can be really minimal and cheap. The one I used for the controller on my hobby car, with a 1000 amp current limit, was a simple fish tank submersible pump feeding a pretty small trans cooler radiator. For something like the Light Bee you could probably use something that looks more like an oversize computer processor system, augmented with a little muffin fan. Cheap, light, easy to package. The trans cooler I had would suffice to cool both the motor and controller on the Sur-Ron and still be a breeze to integrate. A much better solution than a gearbox.

    I have to wonder if the problem dentvet describes could be fixed with a muffin fan on the motor or controller (whichever is the culprit), or both. Maybe add a heat sink to the controller and direct some air to it, maybe get some air to the area around the motor, which aerodynamically is probably kind of a dead-air space.
  11. kiwial

    kiwial Allweatherrider

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    When it comes to cooling, I always thought 'forced air cooling' was underrated (and I have proven that point to myself).
    A simple mini watercooling system sounds good too.
    And I dont like the idea of a gearbox either.
    I like it only when dealing with a limited power source, like on a E-mountain bike, where there is a lot of going slow on steep stuff, 'starting from stand still on steep hills' etc. where a lot of the Amps is dumped into heat instead of forward movement. Because there isn't enough power to start off with, one therefore has to make the most of the little that is available.
    .
  12. dentvet

    dentvet Long timer

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    Yes I'm thinking the controller is the issue rather than the throttle assembly. The throttle input is but one parameter the controller is using to determine amount of amps allowed into the motor. A motor sitting at 0 rpm isnt going to be fed many amps regardless of how we tweak the throttle assembly.

    I would love to be wrong about this and I encourage smdub to keep going because our controller isn't programmable and a throttle hack would be much cheaper than a different controller. http://www.automotive.picoamps.de/doc/ManualMapping.pdf

    The magic conrtoller/throttle combo still doesnt exist, even in the alta or the serious factory electric trials bikes still running clutches. The "instantaneous torque" is still only theoretical as we still suffer what amounts to turbo lag
  13. kiwial

    kiwial Allweatherrider

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  14. ctromley

    ctromley Been here awhile

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    Subtle but crucial point: E-bikes are intended to provide assist to the primary engine, the rider. As engines go, a human rider acting as one is pretty wimpy. If really strong, he/she might peak at 1000 W, but only for a few seconds. Averaging 250 W for any appreciable time is also fairly rare. And most important to the discussion here, that performance only happens in a very narrow rpm range.

    None of that applies to the electric assist. Mid drives are in fact the better choice for a number of reasons, but running them through 20+ speeds is not a requirement for the drive. It is for the human. That huge range of speeds can make life for the motor pretty hard if the rider is clueless, but if they treat the motor as the assist it is intended to be and select a gear for a proper human cadence, everyone remains happy.

    A motor/controller designed to power the bike on its own would be set up differently. A single speed is an option (ala hub motors), but going for a single fixed reduction might not make as much sense as it does on larger vehicles, simply because derailluer systems already exist, they're cheap, light and compact. But you certainly wouldn't need anywhere near as many speeds (five would probably be overkill), and you might need to figure out automatic shifting to keep the human from buggering things up.
  15. kiwial

    kiwial Allweatherrider

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    I should have clarified the point that when 'the boys', like on the Endless-Sphere Forum, talk about E-Mountain Bikes we usually refer to it being NOT 'Pedal Assist Only' bikes (or 'Throttle Only Option', because they can of course be and often are assisted with pedal power by choice).
    .
    What I mean is, a bike that has something like a Bafang BBSHD Mid Drive Kit added that can easily run at 1500 Watt all day and can be hot rodded to 3000 Watts (with temperature monitoring and careful application of trottle because 3kW being the absolute limit of what a bicycle drive train can handle).
    .
    https://lunacycle.com/bafang-bbshd-1000w-middrive-kit/
    .
    https://www.electricbike.com/project-x-building-the-baddest-and-fastest-3000w-bbshd-ebike-ever/
    .
    The reason for a bike like that is simple. The best tracks for Off Road riding these days are Mountain Bike Tracks and new ones are being build all the time.
    While places to ride a bike like the Sur-Ron are limited and becoming fewer all the time.
    Now, with new laws in the US allowing electric (assist) MTBs on MTB tracks, it's looking even better.
    But even before that, as long as one only used the motor to get to the beginning of the MTB track (mostly riding gravel roads...) and then ride down the tracks without the motor going, nobody complained (I've ridden like that for many years).
    Meaning, also having fun getting to the start of the track (using the natural features beside the road as a playground...).
    The only use for the Sur-Ron I would have is as a Supermoto/Commuter, because part of the road where I live is ideal for it, but then I would soon be yearning for more power, because as a safety factor, I would like to be able to keep up with traffic on the flats.
  16. Bucho

    Bucho DAMNrider

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    There is dentvet doing some trials practice on his electric
    upload_2019-10-3_17-23-57.jpeg
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  17. Bucho

    Bucho DAMNrider

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    This tire was very intimidating at first. But we got the hang of it

    upload_2019-10-3_17-25-9.jpeg
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  18. JDUBinCO

    JDUBinCO Mass Centralized

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    How did you get a moto front end on the Sur Ron? Parts needed?
  19. Bucho

    Bucho DAMNrider

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    I believe he said it was the entire front end off of a Honda CRF150R

    I rode it a little bit. I thought the moto forks felt a little better. The throttle still feels funny to me but Dave was riding it pretty well
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  20. dentvet

    dentvet Long timer

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    These are great little bikes. It amazing what 8 horsepower will do in most terrain but for long extended climbs, it needs more juice. I jumped from the 48 tooth sprocket to 61 and now to 71 on the rear. She's a wheelie monster now but I need more riding to see if it was a good idea, overall.

    Love the pics, bucho. good fun!
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