Metamorphosis: Ugly Goose into Eagle of Zeus

Discussion in 'Some Assembly Required' started by sakurama, Apr 24, 2014.

  1. sakurama

    sakurama on an endless build

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    I agree about the lower mount. My goal is no bolt on braces - I'd like the frame to lift off the engine or vice versa. I feel a week point is the place where the tubes from the pivot join the frame over the tranny. That small sheet steel web isn't much and is placed poorly. It's a missed opportunity I think.

    I bought 4130 tube yesterday and this week I'll be sketching out my ideas. I want to brace that area and tie it into the engine to try to create a direct line from steering head to pivot.

    Gregor
  2. lesman

    lesman Live easy, Brake Hard

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    I was looking at the driveshafts in post 240. They had 2 u-joints. I have a Quota. It has 1 u-joint. When you build the single sided swingarm. Will it have a double u joint driveshaft inside a housing or outside like in post 240? How much modification goes into a 2 u-joint driveshaft setup?You stated that your wheel base was about 60.3"(quick mental calculation metric to inches). Isn't Guzzi wheel base usual in the 59-62" range? I really appreciate what you are doing. I want to build a Guzzi. The starting point would be with a California based Tonti in the future.
    waylongway likes this.
  3. nickguzzi

    nickguzzi Long timer

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    If I understand your description - where normally the two plates bolt together the main frame and lower foot peg/engine/gearbox cradle?
    What I did was to drill and ream for a hardened steel interference fit dowel pin. I also made a mandrel to ensure the gearbox output/swing arm centre line was co-incident. This is not always the case.
    Certainly the handling and S/A support bearing life was better afterwards.
    I'm not really aware that others have felt this is a weak area.

    The frame can be easily lifted off the engine, using the front engine bolts as pivots. It is the recommended way to remove the gearbox, work on the clutch or more likely, the rear main oil seal.
    I made a couple of stands to fit over the upper shock mounts. Remove battery and tray, remove front short frame bolts and all the rear ones, shocks. Should just lift up and the stands fall into place. Unless I forgot something, but it will be obvious - and easy.

    If you find you need the engine out, disconnect the rest of the engine wiring and cables, pull out the front engine through bolt and wheel the frame away.


    @lesman [​IMG]

    Unfortunately, I can't find a picture from the other side which shows the 2xUJ's on the swing arm.
    The bike was designed and built by Tony Foale for Dick Woods, who was the prop of MotoMecca, the big guzzi spares honcho in UK at the time.
    I think the Dr John version was based on this design, as the TF one was built prior.
    Many of the bits and bobs which would be a pain in the arse to make viz a viz the rear suspension, where incorporated in the post Le Mans, V10 bikes.
    waylongway and lesman like this.
  4. nickguzzi

    nickguzzi Long timer

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    Just noticed, the flash in the corner says "British", he was actually educated in Australia. Very clever bloke.

    http://www.tonyfoale.com/ have a browse. The book/software is incredibly useful.
  5. sakurama

    sakurama on an endless build

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    Ha. I've known Tony for years and would count him as a friend. He's come to our shop back east a few times and I even hosted him at my studio in NYC where he gave talk about chassis design and dynamics. Much of our thought process when designing my boxer was drawn from his book. I used to subscribe to Michael Moore's Chassis List on which Tony and my friend and former shopmate Chris Cosentino are very active. Tony literally wrote the book on motorcycle handling and I refer to it frequently.

    Another book that no self respecting builder should be without is John Bradley's book The Racing Motorcycle: A Technical Guide for Constructors V1 and V2 which are again invaluable resources. If anyone here following this thread doesn't have these books I implore you to go and buy them now - they frequently go out of print - as they are the three most important books relating to motorcycles and building.

    So my thoughts on modifying my bikes are drawn from Tony's and John's books and also from my experience racing 125 and 250 GP bikes and the building and racing of a very early Tigcraft 426 Yamaha super single. I was always good at riding around handling deficits but my TZ250 and RS125 were the best handling motorcycles in the world and they are my benchmarks. I know the Guzzi won't approach that but creating a stable and nimble platform for the old engine is my goal.

    Gregor
  6. sakurama

    sakurama on an endless build

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    My new timing cover is supposed to be in today and that means I need to get the shop cleaned up and ready for some work. The main problem I have with the shop is too many motorcycles. It's a pretty great problem to have as they go but it's cramping my ability to work on them and right now I have only one bike running - my Ducati. That's irony right there.

    So I got some parts for the project and this is where it's going to get very interesting because I don't know if what I want to do is possible. This is what I want to do:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I have always loved single sided swingarms and the one on the R1200GS BMW is the coolest one ever made I think. It's not much of a stretch to put an R1100GS swingarm on an R100GS as they are the same width at the pivot. At some point I'll do that with an airhead I have kicking around. This bevel box is quite a bit harder as it will require a custom swingarm which is beyond my current skill set.

    My favorite builder is Stellan Egeland and he built the BMW HP2 custom "Slugger" which is, to my mind, the most impressive custom bike ever made.

    [​IMG]

    So my plan is to loosely copy his swingarm and make changes where I need to. The driveshaft will be exposed but the main hurdle right now is actually getting the driveshafts to work together. The Guzzi uses a 10 spline output into a CV joint (two U-joints together) and the BMW uses a 20 spline on the bevel drive. My local driveshaft shop wasn't sure they could come up with a solution and in searching the net I discovered Bruno's Machine & Repair and he thinks that he can make the two play together. It remains to be seen if the idea is feasible as the BMW uses different pivot locations so I'll slog forward until it's not possible to do so or I succeed.

    In the mean time I'm still sketching and thinking about how I'm going to brace the frame. Here's some of my thoughts on paper right now.

    [​IMG]

    I'm thinking I'll cut out the rear triangle altogether as I won't need it if I'm going to a single shock. A second set of tubes that crossed from the swingarm pivot to the upper frame rails would provide a convenient place to tie into the transmission mitigating the need for the plate solution and greatly increasing the rigidity of the swingarm pivot much like the side braces common on BMW airhead racers. I'm wondering if I could get ride of the lower transmission mounts but if it's easy to keep them and remove the frame there's no reason not to.

    The goal is to improve the handling first but also to change the line of the frame so it's no longer such a strong horizontal divider of upper and lower. I want to lift the seat higher (I'm going to ditch the aluminum one I got) and make a subframe from aluminum and lift the tank to create a more nose down ass up angle to the whole affair.

    Hopefully in the next week my parts will come in from McMaster and I can drill and cut the front mount and then I'll pull the frame and detab the whole thing and cut the headstock down and look at the bracing solutions.

    At this point the national Guzzi rally is in John Day, OR this year in June (a giant long shot) or there's the 6 hour SFRC endurance race around the same time. Most likely I'll put the Guzzi on hold for a bit and try to get my XR100 framer built in time for the race.

    Gregor
    Foxed101, waylongway, GR0NK and 5 others like this.
  7. DiggerD

    DiggerD DougFir from SuperDuke Days

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  8. sakurama

    sakurama on an endless build

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  9. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    Stop messing around with the guzzi and go start on the tanks for the 990
  10. waylongway

    waylongway madmax Supporter

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    Sorry Gregor, No build thread......Just some juice..

    [​IMG]

    Keep going on the Guzzi........:wink:
    flinders_72 likes this.
  11. DiggerD

    DiggerD DougFir from SuperDuke Days

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    Gregor Wrote:
    "I'd love to see Loaded finish his Guzzi..."

    I say: I'd love to have his Guzzi..better be carful what I wish for tho..

    Might see you out JD...be riding and hiding a Honda XX Black Bird..:lol3
  12. Roadracer_Al

    Roadracer_Al louder, louder, louder!

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    Gregor, I've seen the work you've done on other bikes. I think you *do* have the skills to build a swingarm.
  13. BOOTLACE

    BOOTLACE Bikie Scum. Supporter

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    Some interesting Guzzi's from last weekend.

    Underslung rear end.

    P1030206.jpg


    Interesting front ends as well.

    P1030207.jpg


    P1030211.jpg


    P1030212.jpg
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  14. BOOTLACE

    BOOTLACE Bikie Scum. Supporter

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  15. BOOTLACE

    BOOTLACE Bikie Scum. Supporter

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    I'd have to agree 100%!
  16. BOOTLACE

    BOOTLACE Bikie Scum. Supporter

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    While I'm here, I think this would be a good place to share this. Nice piece of work...

    P1020985.jpg

    Works, too!

    P1020986.jpg

    Somehow :scratch

    P1020988.jpg
    Te Hopo and GR0NK like this.
  17. nuggets

    nuggets It's all my fault...

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  18. nickguzzi

    nickguzzi Long timer

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    More on the Swallower
    [​IMG]
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  19. nickguzzi

    nickguzzi Long timer

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    Yet more
    [​IMG]
    nuggets likes this.
  20. nickguzzi

    nickguzzi Long timer

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    Another
    [​IMG]