Mid 60's Bultaco Matador Project

Discussion in '2 smokers' started by tenorjazz, Feb 14, 2011.

  1. PSchrauber

    PSchrauber Long timer

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    Very nice work, indeed.

    I would try to get new cluth plates, the old ones look worn out.
    I'am not sure because I don't know much about the older engines, your cluth plates look very different to the one I had to replace for the model 199b, mine where complete out of steel?

    You only change the rings as I understand, piston was in such a good status, then you are a lucky man.

    Looks like You did not even had many scratches on the side covers of the engine, this is good too.

    Have you done any treatment to the flywheelweight and the clutch case the surfaces of them look so untouched -> no wear marks are visible?

    Great work, I would like so see more pic's, thank's for posting.
    #21
  2. stainlesscycle

    stainlesscycle Long timer

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    don't know if the 4 speed clutch is different, but i believe stock is all steel, and barnett manufacturers a fiber one.
    #22
  3. tenorjazz

    tenorjazz Been here awhile

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    The snows coming down and my shop is not insulated to it's hard to keep warm. On top of that, I have a cold, so my project is on hold till I feel a little better. Not letting this time go to waste, I'm planning a solo trip through Montana and the Dakotas. I'll be riding a BIG dual sport this trip so won't be going too far off road (I probably could, but I won't).

    I've been thinking of taking my Matador on a trip like this in future, I figure there isn't anyplace I couldn't go with it. Just concerned about long distance travel on such a bike. 2-strokes don't get very good gas mileage and you have to deal with pre-mixing the gas, so the hassle factor is a little greater. I also wonder how well a bike that is 46 years old will hold up (I'm almost 60 and I know how I feel sometimes), it could be a lot of fun and adventure.

    The metal clutch plates were OK on the surface, once I cleaned them off, it was the worn out "tabs" that bother me.

    [​IMG]

    All the rust is gone and the metal is in pretty good shape.

    I was told that if you can see the gap between the fiber, the clutch would work OK. I did clean all the gunk out of the fiber material and the plates seem to be grabbing just fine. I'm more concerned that they won't slip enough when I dis-engage he clutch, I might have cleaned them too well.

    [​IMG]

    When I'm feeling better, I might open the clutch up again and shoot some pictures of how well they cleaned up.

    My friend Dave, says his clutch is working better that ever and it's almost down to bear metal.

    Once I get everything together and give it a try I will know if I need to replace the plates.
    #23
  4. RecycledRS

    RecycledRS Along for the ride

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    Do you have any concerns that the powder coating you used on the barrel would retain heat more than a thinner high heat spray paint? I have no experience here it just seems like it may be a barrier to heat. Nice start to your project will be watching with interest.
    #24
  5. PSchrauber

    PSchrauber Long timer

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    Yep steel is right, the plates I found where pretty worn, as the rod, and the pressure plate, the ball have left deep marks so I had replace them too:
    [​IMG]

    The engine is complete rebuilded, the sidecases not:


    [​IMG]

    The flywheel is from a Pursang model for getting more live in the engine,
    still over 1,4 kg left, the standard fittet to the 199b have 2,9 kg (the one one the right side and a 3,9kg motoplat rotor on the ignition side, (now changed to a 3,4kg Femsa unit), here the flywheel in comparison:

    [​IMG]

    But this is an other engine, don't want to hitchhike this threat, would like to see more about the mid 60's Bulto.
    #25
  6. PSchrauber

    PSchrauber Long timer

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    Now after you have already installed all parts, I would give the clutch a chance, I would use good ATF oil and see what happens if it still slip's then IMHO it's time for a replacement. It depends how you want to use the bike, when doing trialsriding a perfect cluth is a must have, if not and it does not slip then it's OK I believe.
    #26
  7. tenorjazz

    tenorjazz Been here awhile

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    The powder coating is really thin and, even though you can't see it in the picture, it doesn't go very far between the fins.

    I put the coating on without using the static charge because there is this problem that powder is actually repelled if you get to surfaces too close together. Can't remember exactly what it's called, but it's the same things as trying to push the negative ends of two magnets together. I think it works kind of like this... the powder normally gets a positive charge as it goes through the gun and the piece is grounded to make it negative. So normally the powder is attracted to the part and sticks. But if you have two pieces of metal real close together, like between the fins, it will repel the positively charged powder. The "pro" guns pulse the charge between negative and positive so powder will be attracted. The solution, if you don't have a multi-thousand dollar gun, is to heat the part up to 400 degrees and spray without a charge. The powder coat starts melt/cure when it hits the part so it sticks. Another advantage of doing it this way is that you can easily see how thick it is going on.

    As far as knowing how thick the powder is, when it's not melting, you can use a gauge of some sort. I made a little piece of aluminum that I can scrap on a part to check thickness, but I usually don't need to use it. I have been making pottery for about 40 years and powder coating is very similar to glaze, when you apply it. Over the years I have learned to judge how thick the glaze is and it's really helped me "feel" how thick the powder coat is.

    I've been experimenting pretty heavy over last couple of months trying to get the powder coating to work. If you have any questions I would be glad to pass on what I have learned.
    #27
  8. stainlesscycle

    stainlesscycle Long timer

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    which femsa/motoplat ignition flywheel is that???
    femsa flywheel= 3.15 lb (1.4kg)
    motoplat flywheel= 2.1 lb (.95kg)
    points flywheel=3.75 lb (1.7kg)
    internal motplat (i haven't got it off to weigh it, but since it's internal, the inertia should be significantly less than even light motoplat)


    i had no idea there different weight clutch flywheels. you learn something new everyday. i only have sherpa s/pursangs - they're all the light ones.



    i think you're too late!

    i started building a 134 today. got frame in paint and swingarm/front end/wheels on it.
    tomorrow is motor rebuild.

    should be done in a few days (depending on parts supply...)
    #28
  9. PSchrauber

    PSchrauber Long timer

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    There are some differences between the Sherpas from the 60's to beginning 70's and the Sherpas from the end e 70's to the beginning 80's I think and as I have seen from the pictures that are posted here.

    That's interesting for me again, working on the later models.

    From displacement, (340 ccm), Gearbox with 6 gears to
    a let's call it more radical engine design for trialriding.

    While the older models works also good for Trail or Enduro riding,
    the "newer" Sherpas are not so comfortable anymore.

    Here is a pic of the huge rotor the engine of the model 199b can use,
    (and this is the lighter Femsa version):
    [​IMG]


    Do You need the complete Numbers and Spec's of the different rotors???
    #29
  10. bgoodsoil

    bgoodsoil Dare to be Stupid

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    Is there a good Bultaco book? One that explains all the model differences?
    #30
  11. PSchrauber

    PSchrauber Long timer

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    The only english one I know is Haynes Nr. 219:

    [​IMG]

    But covers only models from 1972 to 1975.

    There should be original shop repair manuals for some models in
    Spanish available, but used or as copy's they are $$$.

    There was a German Bultaco repair manual also available,
    printed in Switzerland, I have one, good, it's based on the Hanyes
    but covers models from 1972 up to 1977/78.

    For my model 199b which was only build in small numbers there do
    not even exist any parts book either, in cases like this or
    similar best way IMHO is to ask former Bultaco dealer or importer,
    that is what I did because in some cases I could not get
    any information:

    - Orlando Calonder CH,
    - Dave Ranham from BultacoUK GB,
    - Hemut Pfahler D,
    ...
    #31
  12. stainlesscycle

    stainlesscycle Long timer

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    the clymer manual is significantly better than the haynes...... i use both, each have their own bits of information.

    cylmer manual:
    ebay #
    300528783570
    #32
  13. norton73

    norton73 drinkin' Supporter

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    Hugh's has a ID chart, not exactly what you're looking for, but you can learn a few things looking around his site.

    I went to his Museum a few years back, brand new bikes, some still in crates, restored bikes, lots to look at.
    #33
  14. stainlesscycle

    stainlesscycle Long timer

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    there's this one : here

    and this one is the best - a friend has a copy i've perused a couple of times, i gotta get a copy eventually. it has all the technical data in the back....

    this is good for model id - has pics
    #34
  15. PSchrauber

    PSchrauber Long timer

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    Yes yes the Francesco Herreros book is extremly good, it's also in german availalble.

    The Swiss repair book with a lot of explosion drawings and pic's:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Good ressource the French Trial Magazine (also in English available) and of course Trial Classic, (only in French):

    [​IMG]

    Best ressource so far IMHO are old issues of Trialsport, from 1977 - 1982 where these bikes where tested discussed and improvements where made, but they are very rare:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Good are parts books to the right model, you get them in Spain:

    [​IMG]

    Which is important to get the right parts:

    [​IMG]
    #35
  16. bgoodsoil

    bgoodsoil Dare to be Stupid

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    thanks! I'll see what Amazon has and do some reading before I go looking for a bike. I appreciate it.
    #36
  17. tenorjazz

    tenorjazz Been here awhile

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    The Parts Books and Service Manuals from Hughs Bultaco are very good, I'm doing my whole rebuild from these. They also have a lot of other books and things.



    http://bultaco.com/Manuals.htm
    #37
  18. darmst6829

    darmst6829 Been here awhile

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    Hi Tenorjazz,
    4 speed Bultaco’s are interesting beasts. The bikes are crudely built with water pipe frame tubes and hand made parts that are literally hammered to fit in a dirt floored factory. The bikes handle amazingly well and are tough as nails. Bultaco made many changes to the clutch assemblies and I have seen at least 3 different versions of clutch’s, all the 4 speed bike have a woodruff key holding the inner clutch hub to the transmission shaft and alternating cork and metal plates. The clutch’s seem impervious to wear and work just fine on the low horsepower motors even when completely worn out. Removing the burs from the plates and inner clutch hub tangs help with smoother operation. The 175cc model 13 motor I raced all last year in my Sherpa S was bought off eBay for $85.00. I changed the primary chain and crankshaft seal and that’s it. I am retiring the motor in favor of a Matador 250cc motor for this next season. The crankshaft assembly is the heart of any two stroke and I would suggest that the “rod kit” as installed in your project should last a good long time in a trials bike. It felt just fine when I examined it. The bike you are building is special. The frame has been heavily modified by Herb (an ex Bultaco semi factory rider) to work better for trials. There are changes to things like the forks and wheels that are outrageous and I hope you appreciate how trick the bike is going to be. I am thrilled you have taken on this project because I have way to many myself and am really happy to see that the bike is going to be used in competition as per Herbs request. See you at the trials!
    Dave
    #38
  19. tenorjazz

    tenorjazz Been here awhile

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    Hey Dave,

    I was wondering if you have been "lurking" around this thread.

    It's an amazing opportunity that you have provided me with a bike to learn how to build and ride. I know you are as interested in seeing how the modifications on this bike affect it's performance as I am in building and riding it.

    I got the replacement piston ring yesterday, but between the weather being so cold, the limited capacity of heating my shop and having a cold, I probably won't get back to work till later this week. I figure that with cleaning up and installing the rest of the parts, including figuring out what to do with the magneto and carburetor I have a few days left on the motor.

    After that I would like to get that "test frame" set up to test the motor. Originally we had talked about cutting up that other Matador frame, but I'm either going to build something from scratch or hook the frame to some kind of stand. I figure when I get done with this bike and my bike, we might be able to use the frame and left over parts to build another. By the third bike, I might have this process figured out and it might be pretty nice:D

    Until I get back to my build I thought I would post some pictures I found while surfing around the web.

    [​IMG]

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    #39
  20. Dreamdaddy

    Dreamdaddy n00b

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    Hey there,

    My brother and I had a '67 Bultaco Matador. I remember when my brother first brought it home. Later on he repainted it from red/black to black/yellow and put a accessory Bultaco expansion chamber on it. It was a strange pipe in that it didn't have a stinger and it had metal bumps (weld bumps) inside to act as a baffling method. I was not impressed with the bike as I felt it was under-powered, but it looked real cool!:eek1
    #40