Modern underbones in USA, such as Honda Wave

Discussion in 'Battle Scooters' started by domingo3, May 12, 2009.

  1. mamba24

    mamba24 ScRaM pUpPeT

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    youre from thailand weave? cuz i know they really dressed up their ubones there in thailand.:clap
    #21
  2. mamba24

    mamba24 ScRaM pUpPeT

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    sorry late reply :evil anyway nice ubones you got there too in singapore
    #22
  3. weave88

    weave88 Adventurer

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    the raider pics arent from my area =( raiders over here are strangely unpopular in contrast to other models like yamaha spark, 125z, honda wave etc
    #23
  4. McFlyMpls

    McFlyMpls Gumby...don't ask...

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    I just wanted to make sure everyone knows that the Symba and SuperCub are more or less the same bike, made by the same manufacturer. When the Cub first came out in 1958, it was made entirely by Honda. Honda made them for a few years and then contracted first the engines (SYM's slogan , 'Engine Of Life' comes from this partnership) and then nearly the entire bike to be made by SYM. So SYM has been making Honda underbones bikes since about the mid 60's.

    The Symba is no knock-off Cub. Same exact tooling as a Honda, just 'branded' differenty. SYM is quality stuff, and everyone agrees that the Honda Cub engines are bulletproof and bombproof; hell, the cub is the most sold engine powered vehicle in history (60 million units sold). The Symba gives you updated 12 volt electrics, actual working suspension, a smoother, more powerful engine, and from what I've heard the drum brakes actually work... really good! Symbas/Wowows have been used for years as Australian postal bikes (for some reason that statement just spells out 'durability' to me).

    I hear you though about the more modern, powerful Ubones bikes. I'd pay money any day for a Suzuki Raider, Yamaha Sniper, or how about a Honda XRM (dual sport)?!?!
    #24
  5. techguy

    techguy Scooter Trash

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    In reference to someones comment about why people want a 50cc scoot. As I understand it, if the bike is 50cc and under, you can park it in the bike racks on most college's campus and skip the parking fees for a car or m/c. This is why so many of the scoots are are sold in this range. In many cities, it is completely legal to park on the sidewalks and bike racks at any store.

    These are in addition to lack of need for insurance of a full m/c endorsement. Not that I don't think you should treat a 50cc scoot any different than a 500cc maxi-scoot as far as insurance and gear.

    My biggest concern about a 50cc scoot is that you are basically stuck in the most dangerous part of every road, the right edge next to every opening car door and merging cell-phone talking soccer mom, hidden by every parked car and overgrown hedgerow.
    #25
  6. kknuth

    kknuth Out east!

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    I'll second the vote for the Raider. Very fun underbone. The key is the 150CC DOHC 4 valve engine with mono-shock suspension. Rides very nice, and can get up to 50mph fast. I had it up to 70 mph on a ride in the Philippines last fall and it didn't seem that taxed with my 180lbs on it. I'd love to get one in the States.

    Pic:[​IMG]
    #26
  7. McFlyMpls

    McFlyMpls Gumby...don't ask...

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    I'm jealous. Did you rent it? How did you like the gearing spread of the 6 speed? I've heard that they can be bought new in SE Asia to the tune of about $1200... maybe we should set up a grey import business?

    Yesterday I rode the SYM Symba for about 45 minutes around the cities here. I loved it... smooth engine, excellent ride/handling compared to the original Cub that most are used to. The drum brakes stop the little bike on a dime, I was really surprised. The only thing holding it back was the 101cc engine.
    #27
  8. Woodsrat

    Woodsrat Gone ridin'

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    Hot rod versions of this motor are available from the pit bike people with displacements upwards to 160cc and more--and these motors rock!! You'll lose the electric starter and you'll encounter minor issues with getting the carb and electrics to adapt but if you want the Symba From Hell it can be done. The ultimate "Q" ship!!
    #28
  9. domingo3

    domingo3 Been here awhile

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    Woodsrat,
    I've been wondering about engine upgrades. Do you have links to read up more on this? Does it just increase acceleration, or are there mods for top speed, too?
    #29
  10. Woodsrat

    Woodsrat Gone ridin'

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    Engine modifications generally will increase both. Once you increase power you can adjust your acceleration or top speed by changing your final drive gearing or, in some cases, the primary drive as well. An example of primary drive gearing changes is the XR/CRF-50 vs. the XR/CRF-70. The 50 has a lower primary gear ratio (higher numerically) which when installed on the 70 motor greatly increases it's acceleration. By contrast the 70, with it's much higher gearing (lower numerically) in it's primary and final drive along with it's larger wheels will hardly get out of it's own way. Potentially the 70's higher gearing would allow for more top speed but the motor simply won't pull it.

    A couple of initial places to explore for ready to bolt in engines and hot rod parts for the small Honda 50/70 clone motors:

    http://www.pitsterpro.com (click on "products", then "motors")

    http://www.hondatrailbikes.com

    Do a search under pit bike performance parts and you'll find a lot of retailers of performance parts for these motors. In Japan there's a whole industry of manufacturers of parts for the genuine Honda motors and you can turn them into real fire breathers!
    #30
  11. domingo3

    domingo3 Been here awhile

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    So, those websites talk about CRF-50/70. Would it be a bolt on project to stick a 160cc engine on a Symba or a serious engineering struggle? I know how to follow directions, but couldn't adapt anything on my own. I take it this type of upgrade would lose the semi-auto, and you'd have to mount a clutch lever somewhere, right?


    http://shop.pitsterpro.com/gpxmoto150xcrateengine.aspx

    Any guess what kind of speed you'd get with one of these and the appropriate adjustments to final drive? Could you take it on the freeway?
    #31
  12. Woodsrat

    Woodsrat Gone ridin'

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    The engine itself will bolt on to the frame since all these motors are based upon the Honda 50/70 (the Trail 90/110's have a different bolt pattern). Where it might get interesting is getting the carburetor, electrics, etc. tied to the Symba. Motor swaps like this can be challenging for this reason. Still, it could be done but not by an amateur mechanic unless they're willing to take the time and learn something in the process. You will lose your e-starter, though.

    Modifying the Symba motor is another story. There are basically two styles of Honda clone motors coming out of the Orient--one is very similar to the original Honda and the others (the Pitster Pro-style motors and others that look like Hondas--their KLX top end-style motors are a whole 'nuther story) that have slightly longer cylinders. Many companies such as Honda Trail Bikes offer performance parts for the Chinese/Taiwanese Honda clones.

    It's incredible the number of variations that exist among the different Honda clones which is why if you want to irritate the poop out of your local Honda dealer's parts man go in there, try to buy parts and tell him that you were told that your other-than-Honda motor is "just like a Honda."

    Without having a Symba motor in front of me I cannot say for sure what performance parts would fit. However, I'd venture to guess that you can easily modify the top end with bolt-on components available such as larger bore cylinder/piston kits, better breathing head assemblies and carburetor kits (which would have to be adapted to the Symba throttle, perhaps with a custom cable). The bottom end would be a different story since it's an electric start unit and the stroker crankshafts wouldn't bolt into this motor. I'm sure it would be possible to lengthen the stroke of the Symba crank (possibly with help from Powroll who has been stroking and modifying these little motors for almost 45 years) but this goes far beyond the capability of most home mechanics.

    My suggestion if you're interested in modifying the Symba would be to simply disassemble the top end of the engine, measure things like the piston pin diameter and confirm the existing bore/stroke, the length of the cylinder plus make note of what style of head is on it (plain cam bearing vs. newer Honda style ball bearing cams) and then contact one of the many sellers of performance parts for this style of motor. "Dr. ATV" (http://www.dratv.com) is a wealth of information and a call/email to to him would give you an idea of what might be done to improve the Symba's performance.

    Anything you do to improve performance will usually compromise something else including reliability although these little motors are so over built it's amazing the amount of extra power that can be extracted and still be reasonably reliable.

    I'm looking for an '82 or '83 12 v. Honda Passport to do a Pitster Pro motor swap into it. A wheelstanding, tire smoking Passport would be so wrong--but fun...
    #32
  13. McFlyMpls

    McFlyMpls Gumby...don't ask...

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    I like your ideas, but for me it'd have to wait a year or two until there are a couple used Symbas on the market... it's hard to justify throwing more money at a brand new, $2900 bike.

    I also test rode a SYM HD200. All I can say is "WOW." For another couple hundred, I'd be getting a scoot with all the power I'd need... warranty intact!
    #33
  14. Fakenstein

    Fakenstein Long timer

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    Get one of the 160 kit motors that come with carb (most of them do). Tough part is the stator plate for electrics. You will probably have to swap from the stock one of rewind the one that comes with the kit motor to run the lights.
    #34
  15. adz_fh

    adz_fh RIder for the World

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    First of all, greetings to all the guys of ADVrider from Indonesia. New here.

    I've been searching for U.S. underbone discussions for a while, and i found this thread when googling (:D), so i decided to join ADVrider not only to reply, but i also want to discuss and know more.

    After reading the whole thread (this thread was already three years old, but still interesting IMO), i wanted to voice my opinion:

    I agree. 50 cc scooters won't do it. They're too slow.

    SYM is not a popular manufacturer here in Indonesia, so i don't really into their products :cry. However, we have several choiceslike Honda Absolute Revo (Honda Wave 110) and its sister bike, Honda Blade 110. Both equipped with new 110 cc engine which was an major improvement over the old 100cc found in the C-Series (noted: roller rockers and raised cylinder to reduce friction) . Max power is 9 hp and the top speed is about 70 mph stock, and can reach up to 80-90 mph with minor modifications (Oh, and it's easy to tune up, for sure).
    (i think we wouldn't need to talk about their gas mileage here. 100 mpg ftw!)

    The competitors come from the other big four manufacturers

    Yamaha has T110 (Yamaha Spark 110/Jupiter-Z and its relative, Yamaha Vega ZR.)
    Suzuki with FD110 (Indonesian spec: Suzuki Smash.)
    Kawasaki (called Kawasaki Kaze, Blitz, and Edge; all have same engine with only different designation)

    Pic:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Up: Absolute Revo, Down: Blade 110R
    (WOW, Daniel Pedrosa on an underbone :thumb)
    #35
  16. DaBinChe

    DaBinChe Long timer

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    The Madass was never produced in Germany. It was designed there and has always been made in China. Subcontracted out to a chinese mfg.
    #36
  17. DaBinChe

    DaBinChe Long timer

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    You only got a small part of it right. So it goes like this when honda started to become big and moved into other markets. In Taiwan they contracted SYM to be a OEM parts maker, then slowly let SYM make more of the Cub. SYM was Honda's major OEM producer in Taiwan at the time and it was mainly for the Taiwanese market. Honda does this for most all of it's markets in the world. The relationship between SYM and honda went sour when SYM wanted to make a whole bike. This meant competition for Honda, so honda dropped SYM. And the only way SYM would stay alive was to go produce their own line up of bikes.
    #37
  18. adz_fh

    adz_fh RIder for the World

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    here we called Minerva Sachs Madass (notice the "Minerva", it's the Chinese brand you're talking about
    #38
  19. DaBinChe

    DaBinChe Long timer

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    The Symba motor is nothing like the modern Honda Cub motors. What they do share is the same type of configuration, like how every automaker has a I4/V6/V8, that is where the similarity ends. I've never looked into the bottom end of my Symba when I had it but for sure the top end is completely different then a modern Cub style Honda. Even the XR/CRF 50/70 is completely different from the Symba as well as the modern style Cubs.
    #39