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Mosko Moto Soft Bags for Offroad & Dualsport

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by Sideoff, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. FlowBee

    FlowBee Just me.

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    This thread is great, and I wish you the best of success.

    Since we're obsessing over the issue of loose straps (something I too HATE about much of the soft gear out there), can I just toss this in:

    "If the only tool you have is a hammer, everything will look like a nail." - Kaplan / Maslow

    I wonder if there is another means of fastening / cinching / binding that does not involve 1" nylon webbing and the extra length that has to be dealt with? Someone else mentioned lacing - that's an option. It works great in boots. Stuff in the laces and fold over the flap to cover them. The ideal of accordion pleats was also offered. And also a folding design. Are there other materials that might work. ... elastic? rubber? Maybe there's another approach that would work that you just aren't considering.

    Good luck.
    #81
  2. MeefZah

    MeefZah Curmudgeonly Supporter

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    Very interesting seeing this come together, and the suggestions are quite useful. lots of stuff I never knew existed. I'll be ordering some web dominators.
    #82
  3. tmotten

    tmotten Lefthand ride Dutchy

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    Those ali g-hook buckles are popping up more and more on backpacks (arcteryx, one planet), now sea-to-summit and also kriega. I'm not a fan of buckles that need sewing on and seem to be made only for them. The ali ones don't have alot of strength either except the climbing ones but they are excy and bulky with the curve.

    ITW do a great one which looks great and affordable for this purpose.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I agree on molle and the PALS webbing. Why reinvent the wheel. There is so much available in that market.

    Rubber as no place in the outdoors. I can't handle the UV. UV is the biggest kill joy as it destroys everything from rubber to stitching.

    This is another strap keeper option. I like the ones Kriega use (either duraflex of ITW) for what it is, but they always seem to get in the way for me, so I wouldn't mind not having any.

    [​IMG]


    Not sure on ballistic nylon though. Cordura might look similar but yields better abrasion resistance with less denier. The difference is in the yarn. I found a mill that produces dual 840 genuine cordura which forms D1680 with excellent abrasion resistance.
    #83
  4. btao

    btao RIP Lilolita

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    I like the direction you're heading. Here's some more info for you:

    Here's a peek into the Rocky Mountain bag to see the stiffeners and how they are attached. The velcro stops short so the plastic can slide towards the back. I've found no negatives with this setup. It doesn't sag at all relative to the bag structure when the attachment straps are secure to the frame.

    [​IMG]

    Here's how it attaches:

    [​IMG]

    Those buckles simply go through slots in the Wolfman rack and "T" so it can't come out. Then you just unweight it and flip it flat and they pop out. Super simple and they keep the same length each time.

    Here's the straps:

    [​IMG]

    It works and will leave you with no danglies or sagging straps. The addition of the coated material under the straps is a must if it gets muddy. Otherwise it will wear the fabric quickly from the straps rubbing. I like the cam lock adjustment. You pull, it locks. No questions asked. Works in any condition and with gloves. This works better than the push pull use of a ladder ring, and when you're mounting it to a vibrating motorcycle, it better not come loose. I could see a ladder ring being used at the end of the strap just to slide forward and take up the slack in the strap like binary guy suggested. That might be better than shown. The problem is guiding the strap throughout the whole range because you don't want it moving. With the attachment points at the front, it lets you evenly compress the bag, not just folding over the sides. I like that.

    If you are going to have MOLLE/PALS system, you could use the Ali-G piece on the end of the strap and just hook it into the Pals loop. You could either sew some D-rings into the Pals to control the strap.

    I wouldn't use the bayonette style MOLLE retainer as shown, but probably a heavy doubled & sewn strap one with a pinch clip to secure it from popping out on whoops and logs.

    Ballistic is great. Can be hard to clean fine dirt out of the coarse material, but meh... It's what my cave packs are that you can drag through mud and rocks and water full of tools and come out looking dirty. But, perfectly intact. Usually the washing machine does a good job. Of course, I'm the one that bought a white/neon yellow one.

    That said, Cordura is generally more abrasion resistant due to the 2x2 weave pattern and the more "natural" fiber structure of the yarn versus the fine uniform filament of the Ballistic. Ballistic usually only comes in black because colors don't look very good. Cordura has a nicer more natural feel to it, while ballistic is a heavy weave and shiny.

    If I were to make a recommendation on material if you didn't want urethane coating is this, 1050D Ballistic Cordura:

    http://www.cordura.com/en/fabric/ballistic-fabric.html

    Not sure if that was what you were referring to, but it has the weave and texture of the Cordura, giving it the abrasion resistance, but has the stronger filament of the Ballistic material. Also, you really need to use the real stuff not anything that says "like" material. It's not the same due to the patents and tech behind it.

    To add if it hasn't been mentioned, a waterproof "gym shoe" pocket would be very useful and preferred over a mesh pocket for tarps and rain flys. If it's wet, there's a good chance it's raining.
    #84
  5. bomber60015

    bomber60015 Hold fucking fast Supporter

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    just another post to encourage you guys . . . . .I like the direction you're going, and, though the existing gear we can buy is very, very good, choices are always better ;-}
    #85
  6. tmotten

    tmotten Lefthand ride Dutchy

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    Ballistic cordura is not the same as typical ballistic nylon and difficult to source though. Cordura doesn't make fabric, it licenses it to mills. It's up to the mill what they make. I found a mill in Asia that made the ballistic up to 840d. They also did a dual 840d version which for all intents and purposes can be considered a 1680d.

    I struggled getting anything other than samples from them, unfortunately because it's awesome fabric and noticeably better than 1000d cordura , so went another way. 1000d standard cordura is everywhere and is considered superior to 1050d ballistic nylon.
    #86
  7. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    Thanks for all the feedback. Really appreciating this. We're still messing around with the pannier proto, but it's stalled until we get our first machined hdpe proto of the mounting system back from Hein. He started CAD drawings this week so we should have some parts to play with next week. Then we'll return to the pannier design.

    In the meantime we're cranking on the first-round duffle design and brainstorming ideas for a "rackless" solution, something like the giant loop, kriega 30, or wolfman beta. We also ordered a bunch of molle accessories and some strap control devices, all of which should be arriving shortly.

    Last week I started reaching out to some freelance apparel designers. Hoping that something exciting will surface from that. If you guys know anyone, please PM me? We're looking for someone with deep experience in highly technical outerwear (ideally for moto, but skiing/mountaineering could also work), and who understands the manufacturing/engineering aspects in addition to the design/creative piece. Someone located on the west coast would be ideal.

    Lots more to come!!

    Great ideas, thanks. Like the idea of the g-hook in the PALS loops.

    Do you know much about urethane fabrics? You mentioned that in your post. We're very interested in that but not sure where to turn for vendors etc. Would like to get some samples to play with. We've seen some urethane dry bags that have a really interesting feel. I've heard that its more environmentally friendly and also lighter with a higher abrasion resistance than pvc. Would be interested in any additional info.

    Yes that's the ballistic cordura we were looking at. As tmotten mentioned, it is a little hard to find in small quantities, but im going in to visit with a vendor in Portland tomorrow who says they have some in stock.

    Working on a solution for wet tarps and tents, and jackets on hot days. It'll be on the duffle as opposed to the pannier, but similar concept.

    Agreed that there is lots of excellent gear out there right now from lots of cool, enthusiast-driven companies. Many of which have already been mentioned in this thread (i.e. kriega, giant loop, & wolfman). We've got our work cut out for us!
    #87
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  8. btao

    btao RIP Lilolita

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    Well, with regards to the polyurethane coated fabrics, they tend to be used on the lighter materials because they are waterproof, but still very flexible and durable. Polyurethane is one of those magical mystery materials. You could make a bowling ball out of it, or waterproof lightweight backpacking materials.

    To quote:

    "
    Our line of ARMATEX<sup><small>®</small></sup> U Series Polyurethane Coated Fabrics is comprised of various fabric substrates coated with polyurethane to produce a highly abrasive and impact resistant fabric. Excellent for use as welding fabrics, ARMATEX<sup><small>®</small></sup> U Series Coated Fabrics are also extremely resistant to fuels, are highly flexible, and have a low coefficient of friction.

    Please contact our Customer Service Representatives for more information on our complete line of ARMATEX<sup><small>®</small></sup> U Series Coated Fabrics.

    http://mid-mountain.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=page&pageid=137§ionid=89

    So, I think if you found a heavy duty polyurethane fabric like Armatex, it will be the ultimate material in lieu of an open fabric like ballistic/cordura. It may be better because it's already waterproof, and the waterproofing part of the material also is the abrasion resistant part.

    I don't have an estimate on cost though, but it's raw material cost, so hopefully won't impact the final cost too much.

    I think you can also seam seal using tape specifically for PU. You might be able to thermally seal the seams too since PU is a thermal plastic.

    Here's a useful site on fabricating outdoor gear: http://www.questoutfitters.com/tips_and_hints.htm
    #88
  9. btao

    btao RIP Lilolita

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    You are right, it's very light and feels a little different, but is very durable. If I were to offer and market light weight OR gear, that would be my first choice, hands down.
    #89
  10. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    A few months ago Andrew and I were busy working on other projects/jobs. Then we decided to focus on this. Now the snowball effect is in full force.

    Yesterday I was in Portland meeting fabric suppliers and doing in-store research. This was eye-opening. There are so many fabrics to choose from. In general, it seems like Portland is undergoing a kind of renaissance with soft goods design, prototyping, and small run production.

    Here are some pics from one of the textile distributors:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Visiting various outdoor stores, it&#8217;s obvious that the technical fabrics they&#8217;re using for packs are high specialized, and not something that we&#8217;ll find in stock from a normal local supplier. It has been a while since I went backpack shopping, and I was blown away by how many crazy fabrics are in use and how much &#8220;bling&#8221; you can get on your pack. I snapped a bunch of pics. Here&#8217;s a few examples.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I particularly liked the fabrics that featured polyurethane or urethane coatings, which accounts for most of the &#8220;nicer&#8221; drybags for kayaking and cycling. I bought a few to take with me to fabric vendors, but the vendors were unfamiliar with this fabric. If we&#8217;re interested in that we&#8217;ll have to do some additional searching, probably working together with our factory.

    Here are the urethane & polyurethane bags I bought as samples.

    [​IMG]

    This week, in addition to the side panniers, we started developing our rear duffle and rackless pannier. We want all three SKUs prototyped before we reach out to factories. Having multiple SKUs will help us meet the fabric minimum orders, plus we&#8217;ll have a larger opening order for the factory, which will help attract a better partner.


    Luggage
    • Pannier: We&#8217;re happy with the current dimensions and shape of our pannier prototype, so the focus has shifted to the mounting system. This week we made and tested several mdf mockups, ultimately settling on a final shape which Andrew drew in Adobe Illustrator and sent to Hein for CAD & machining. We expect to have some machined parts to play with next week.
    [​IMG]
    • Rear Duffle: Lots of progress on the rear duffle this week. Our first proto was a roll top with a large beavertail. We didn&#8217;t like this design at all, plus there&#8217;s a lot of bags like that already out on the market, so we quickly started making changes. Our new concept calls for a double-ended roll top (so the rider can access his/her gear without unstrapping the bag) with a two-part cascading beavertail on the top for jacket storage and/or a wet tent, garbage,or other items that need to be kept outside the drybag. Here&#8217;s Andrew cutting off the beavertail on our first round proto so we can mess around with placement.
    [​IMG]

    The duffle will have backpack straps that tuck away into a hidden pocket when not in use, like this:

    [​IMG]

    It will also feature molle panels for adding accessories. Here we&#8217;re cutting some webbing with a hot knife for our proto.


    [​IMG]
    • Rackless Pannier: This week we also started sketches for the rackless pannier. We like some of the stuff that Giant Loop, Kriega, and Wolfman are doing, and we&#8217;ve brainstormed some additional ideas for our own version, which will feature some significant design improvements. More later! Brainstorming:
    [​IMG]

    Apparel

    This week we also contacted some freelance motorcycle apparel designers to start on our riding apparel. Motorcycle apparel is an extremely technical and specialized field so we&#8217;ll definitely need help. On the one hand we feel like we&#8217;re just getting started with the bags, so we&#8217;re biting off a lot of additional work by starting the apparel assortment simultaneously. On the other hand we also know that it&#8217;s going to take 1-2 years to develop apparel, and 6 months from now we&#8217;ll wish that we&#8217;d started 6 months earlier. So we&#8217;re going for it. Here&#8217;s our first apparel brainstorming session:

    [​IMG]

    An interesting and unexpected bonus this week was a crash-course on addwords, SEO, and internet marketing from a close friend who runs a company that specializes in this. It doesn&#8217;t have much to do with &#8220;designing,&#8221; but it was fascinating nonetheless. I am sure this will come in handy down the road when we get to &#8220;marketing.&#8221; It was cool to watch his dashboard with all the campaigns he is managing as they updated in real-time with click-throughs and purchases. Mad Men it was not.

    [​IMG]
    #90
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  11. tmotten

    tmotten Lefthand ride Dutchy

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    Nice work.

    Backpacks are developed with a different compromise in durability vs weight than motorcycle luggage should. For me abrasion is everything as sliding down a gravel road is not a risk, it's and inevitability.

    Coates fabrics tend to score low in tests due to the fact that coating has next ro no impact on abrasion resistance which comes from the weave itself, and thus from the material this is woven with.

    There are few tests for abrasion. Sadly the Taber test seems the most common, at least in Europe.

    This video shows the misleading issues with it. I think this is due to the testing being based on rubbing of a stone. I think the sand paper based tests are more applicable for our purpose.

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/s44pjZtdxEs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
    #91
  12. scoutDad

    scoutDad IBA#203

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    Osprey has the best system I have seen for dealing with excess strap length when it is not being used. There is a tab of velcro sewn to the end of the nylon strap such that one length of velcro extends perpendicular to the strap one way and the other length of velcro extends perpendicular from the nylon strap on the opposite side. You simply roll up the excess nylon strap that is not being used. The velcro straps wind up extending on each side from the center of the rolled up strap and you just connect the two velcro strips to each other and around the part of the nylon strap that is in tension near the connector. Excess strap is secured and stays in place, plus it is just a pull of the velcro tab to release it and use the extra nylon strap capacity.
    #92
  13. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    Time to find a factory. The question is: where? Made in the USA feels good, and we get shorter lead times with smaller minimums. However there are so many more factories overseas, plus we can produce a much more interesting bag for the same cost. For a big company making thousands of bags the choice is easy. For little guys like us it’s harder.

    Either way, just finding a few good factories to talk to (no matter where they’re located) is hard enough, let alone convincing them to pay attention to us. That’s the first step. We have a lead on one factory in Idaho and another in Oregon. Plus earlier this week we met with a Vietnamese factory who was in town to visit Nike. Country of origin might well be determined by which factory takes us seriously first.

    Pannier:

    This week we redesigned the pannier again, and I can now say with 100% confidence that we’re working on an item which I would definitely buy and use myself. That’s the benchmark Andrew and I set: if it’s not something we would actually buy and use vs all the other options on the market, then we won’t bother making it.

    We added a large beavertail. This serves three purposes. 1) it is an awesome stash spot for stuff like a wet rainfly, rain jacket, or six pack. 2) it’s an abrasion barrier which can be easily patched or professionally repaired after a crash, because it can be folded away from the bag and run through a sewing machine. And 3) it provides a nice evenly balanced compression surface across the entire front side of the pannier. Here’s the initial beavertail pattern.

    [​IMG]

    Here’s the beavertail drawn out on the second round proto. Also there’s a molle hydration pouch that we’ve been messing around with, and some hypalon cut for molle.

    [​IMG]

    Hand cutting hypalon for our molle panels, which will be on the front and bottom of the pannier.

    [​IMG]

    Rear Duffle:

    We got our second round duffle prototype and although it’s very rough, we love it. It’s a double-ended roll top with overlapping beavertails on the top and backside. The beavertails can be used while the bag is strapped to the bike, so they’re great for jackets, tents, etc, and could also accommodate a small drybag.

    [​IMG]

    There will be three sections of molle webbing, two on either side behind the rider (perfect for fuel bottles or small pouches/storage) and one large horizontal one on the outside of the front beavertail (which we picture being used for a hydration bladder). In this pic we’re experimenting with a fuel bottle in a molle bottle holder.

    [​IMG]

    Here’s chip testing the stowable backpack straps.

    [​IMG]

    Rackless System

    After considering lots of different shapes/sizes, we like the Giant Loop approach the best, i.e. one integrated bag connecting the passenger footpegs to the rear of the bike. Working with that approach we want to integrate other features from our pannier and duffle, i.e.: roll top closures, large beavertails, external pockets, accessibility while strapped to the bike, 100% waterproof, and molle webbing. The waterproof part will be tricky because of the unusual shape, but we’ll create a proto and then figure out the waterproof part later.

    Here’s Andrew & Chip working on initial sketches.

    [​IMG]

    Apparel:

    The world of cut & sew is large and intimidating, with big players, big factories, and large minimums. I had an opportunity to speak with the founder of Dragon Alliance last week (the goggle company) and one piece of advice he offered was: stay out of apparel! He was referring to the seasonal and fashion-oriented motocross stuff, but still… it made me think. Neither Andrew nor I have an apparel background and moto gear is extremely technical. Luckily we have a friend who works as a designer at a large moto apparel company. He also happens to be a hardcore dualsport/trail rider and he wants to help.

    This week we’ve been looking at stuff that’s already on the market. A few thoughts:

    - There is a lot of awesome gear out there. In the last few years it seems like the market has gone from sparse to crowded. It will be challenging to distinguish ourselves.

    - Klim raised the bar with their multi-tiered dualsport introduction a few years ago. They have something for everyone, from the Adventure Rally kit at ~$2,100 all the way down to the Traverse kit at ~$500. Man, Klim has a huge product line. Looks like great stuff.

    - Moto apparel tries to accomplish a lot of functionality with a single garment. Waterproofness. Abrasion resistance. Impact resistance. Wind stoppage. Moisture wicking. Venting/Cooling. Warmth. Pockets/Storage. Hydration. It’s crazy how much is expected from a single garment.

    - I can’t help but wonder if the engineering has gotten a bit out of control? Maybe simpler would be better. How many pockets do we actually need? It might be better to focus on the primary features that core riders actually use, and skip the more gadgety features which appeal to riders on the fringe.

    - Instead of getting all the functionality from a single garment, a lot of riders are separating the abrasion layer (i.e. a moto jacket without built-in armor), the waterproof layer (a waterproof jacket/liner worn either under/over the abrasion layer), and the impact layer (a pressure suit or body armor). There are a bunch of advrider threads on this. Reminds me of the layering systems in other outdoor sports.

    - This is such a big project that it seems like the only approach is to dive in and just be confident that we’ll come up with something cool in the end. We’ll try that and see how it goes.

    There was also some riding to be had this week, despite the weather.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Our first sponsor?

    [​IMG]
    #93
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  14. MadM

    MadM Dreamer Supporter

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    :lurk:lurk:lurk Following closely. I really like the Molle webbing idea. That duffel looks enormous, maybe something smaller for a single rider traveling light?
    #94
  15. LoJack

    LoJack Long timer

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    Very cool. Been following with interest.

    I want that sticker!
    #95
  16. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    Dang you're right, it does look big. We haven't measured the liters yet we've been so focused on the design.

    Up/downsizing is relatively easy. What do you think is an ideal size?

    Ultimately we might need to do two sizes, probably not a one-size-fits-all type of item. Id does compress/expand well, but you can only go so far with that.
    #96
  17. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    Pm me you address and I'll put one in the mail. A friend of ours made them. I have a few extras.
    #97
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  18. 01001010 01000011

    01001010 01000011 AKA-JC

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    Stickers, is there a line?
    #98
  19. LoJack

    LoJack Long timer

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    Done! Thank you :clap
    #99
  20. Three Dawg

    Three Dawg Into Africa

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    That duffel looks like a good 60 litres to me. I have a 40L Wolfman which is a handy size I find.