Mosko Moto Soft Bags for Offroad & Dualsport

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by Sideoff, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. Sunaj

    Sunaj Been here awhile

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    I use the 2019/20 Klim Dakar pants and its sturdy/heavy. I prefer it over less substantial pants on tarmac, not based on any rational thinking just the feeling of safety because of sturdiness. Ventilation is sufficient, but it gets hot really quick when standing still. Above 30 degrees Celsius I’m not liking the Klim Dakar.

    Been eying the Woodsman for just that reason.
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  2. Sunaj

    Sunaj Been here awhile

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    I always wear a buff, have multiple ones for different weather types. They block the rain well enough, it seldom reaches my base layer.

    The best one for the job with winter/autumn rain is the merino wool one. Wool absorbs a lot of water, and best of all it keeps a lot of it’s thermal capacity. So after a day of rain, about half the buff is soaked with water but my neck is warm and water didn’t run down my neck.

    Hell even putting on the semi wet wool buff the next morning is uncomfortable for just a few minutes and after that the buff has your body heat and all is well again.
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  3. flux_capacitor

    flux_capacitor I know a shortcut!

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    All valid points which I appreciate. I love the Rak jacket, to me it’s the best rain shell I’ve ever had.

    Stoked to see you’ll be in Atlanta! There’s a huge adv contingent here so hopefully it’ll be a good show. I’m about an hour and a half north of the show but if y’all need anything while you’re here don’t hesitate to reach out.
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  4. Nowwhat

    Nowwhat I'll Go Second... Super Supporter

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    I have the 2nd and 3rd generation Dakar jacket and yes it is getting lighter and lighter...7 vents and collar hold backs help...I wouldn't wear it for trail riding unless temps were in 50s or lower..For Adv riding it works very well over a much larger temp range..this week ..low 50s to high 80s..

    For trail riding take a look at the Revolt pull over...great little piece
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  5. cidi

    cidi cidi Supporter

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    @Sideoff
    My thoughts on your update:
    1. Thank you for sharing the “behind the scene” workings of a small international company and the challenges …. It makes me root for you even more than I already do.
    2. That awning is awesome, despite the challenges we had putting it together and mounting the attachment points to the trailer ( say hello to J.C)

    3. Deluge feedback. While I do not own one, I have looked at it several times and decided against it for a few reasons. Hood is a must, either removable or stowable ( instead of rolling it into the collar, why not attach it to the inside of the collar and fold it down the back into a “sleeve”?). Being under helmet compatible would be great to keep wind and rain of your neck while riding. The price point is important to me. We already spend a lot of money on “waterproof” touring gear and adding another several hundred $$ for “just in case” rain gear” is one of the consideration for not getting the Deluge.
    For singletrack/ day rides I want a simple rain jacket (with full length zipper) that is the lowest possible price point and includes some manual venting. So if I go down and rip the fabric I won’t feel bad adding Duct tape to it.
    Same goes for Rain pants. They need to have side zippers to be able to quickly put over dirty Moto-Cross boots.
    3. For ADV touring I am excited about the IR pants (and hopefully Jacket as well) spending day after day on the road and camping 99% of the time camping in a tent, the extra armor is too much bulk / effort to store and put on in the morning/ take off when you set up camp. Stuff for 2 people in one tent gets bulky very quickly and getting dressed to ride needs to be as simple as possible.
    If the Basilisk line had a IR version I’d be wearing it already.
    One request (and this is a big one) when will Mosko Moto start making women specific stuff? (My wife would love to give you input on what is needed )
    Best of luck with the shows, hope to see you at the Bates Mototel when we stop by in September.
    Cheers,
    Chris
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  6. Ayada

    Ayada Adventurer

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    I picked the Rak pants over the deluge for the following reasons:
    • Ease of getting on due to the side zippers
      • It always seems like when I get stuck in rain it's a sudden pour and I want to spend the least amount of time getting soaked as possible. The size zips means I can slap the Rak pants on in what seems like seconds without having to take boots off.
    • Estimated durability
      • After some internal debate, and especially considering the price between the two, I went with my gut feeling that the Rak would stand up to more abuse over time.
    • Color
      • It's not the main factor by any means, but having been "stuck" in a grey suit for years not the last thing I wanted was to go back to looking like a grey wet blob.
    The downside of the Rak, and even highlighted by your criticism of the Deluge is that it isn't as packable as I first thought it was. I still have trouble with finding a good place to stash it and it seems like every time I pack the bike up I spend a good half hour trying a few different spots until I give up and put it somewhere "good enough".

    Taking that, my preferences would be something that's easily packable and easy to put on that's either very durable or priced to be replaceable without draining the wallet every outing. A tall order, to be sure.


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  7. Carl_Mega

    Carl_Mega Been here awhile

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    My deal with rain gear is it needs to fall in one of these categories:

    1) packs super duper small, expected to be temporary situation - can live with it not being robust feature-wise as it is near emergency thus trending towards cheaper with a shelf-life - size encourages it to be packed along
    2) its water proofness is baked into it as a primary gear choice - my Basilisk pants are great in this regard
    3) if it doesn't pack small, it needs to be versatile - waterproof, useful in camp, block wind or provide reasonable use as a legit riding outerlayer - my Klim S4 jacket is very good in this regard

    Straddling the categories doesn't help me much: eg: a nicer temporary outerlayer that doesn't pack small nor provide much versatility
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  8. Zubb

    Zubb he went that-a-way... Supporter

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    +1
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  9. kubcat

    kubcat Riding is Eudaemonic Supporter

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    Here's my perspective on the Deluge. Unlike your Moto-only products for targeted at MC riding/protection/luggage, to me a rain shell is not moto specific. Most of your customers are probably active in other sports as well, such as hiking, backpacking, mountain bikepacking and skiing. I already have several quality WP shell options in my closet in various weights acquired over the years to meet either backpacking/hiking requirements or warm(er) weather skiing requirements and am constantly on the lookout for new gear that meets those needs. If I'm going to spend the kind of money you are asking for, then I am going to be VERY critical, and BE SURE that the gear will meet most of my needs for at least 2 of my sports, if not all of them. I also will probably not take my best technical hiking gear motocamping. For that I would agree with you that a lower cost, but still functional fabric that packs reasonably small would be best, simply due to the reduced life expectancy due to increased wear and tear caused by moto-camping and ADV riding in rainy muddy conditions. Even more likely, I will take some old hiking gear from my closet that has recently been "upgraded" so I don't risk damaging my newest, latest and greatest gear.

    Another factor to consider is that at your MSRP pricing, anyone who can afford them probably already has a gore-tex or equivalent ADV suit, perhaps even more than one. For that buyer, if heavy rain is likely, then maybe they bring that suit instead of a non-WP suit and leave the lightweight shell at home. For most here in the NE, if they don't have a WP ADV alternative, its probably due to price/cost considerations, given how much rain we get, making the deluge at your pricing also out of reach.

    If you really want to see the Deluge line succeed, then you would do better to consider it a technical backpacking layer, set features and price points accordingly, and market it as such, to convince me that it should be my newest, latest and greatest technical hiking gear, or target a price point that I wouldn't mind damaging and replacing.

    Given all that, and that your greatest successes seem to lie with the moto crowd, perhaps you should just concede that the lightweight WP shell market is much broader and more crowded with many big name brands and isn't well suited to your amazingly successful business model.
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  10. LFC09

    LFC09 Adventurer

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    Received notification my aux pox are en route. Should arrive around the same time euro order of BC35s and duffle hit my front door. Excited.
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  11. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    Great feedback!!! Thank you all!!

    Thanks for the input!

    Hey Chris it was awesome seeing you at the mototel and thank you so much for all the help! Look forward to seeing you guys again in the fall.

    I think that bullet point above for singletrack/day rides should be our new target for the deluge, and it probably needs a new name too. The Deluge has side zips that come up a foot or two from the leg cuff but not all the way. Two full side zips would make it a lot less packable. Also if we're trying to hit a price point on these, the full side zips add a lot of cost, and also a significant failure point if we downgrade to a less expensive zipper than what we use on the Rak (the vislon aquaguard). I feel like for an emergency rain layer the boot gusset zip like what we have on the deluge is probably as far as we can go unless people really think that's critical. Full length zips will be less packable, more expensive, and more failure prone. Pull on pants are less expensive, more packable, less failure prone, but baggier.

    The IR kit would be perfect for you guys. I'm glad you're interested in that! Let's get you setup with one of the first ones off the line.

    The Rak is a lot more durable than the Deluge, so it sounds like you made the right call on that given how you're using it.

    I hear you on the side zips and we're definitely open to that on the Deluge if that's what folks are thinking. However like I said above there are some reasons why I think the Deluge might be better staying as a slip on pant. Plus we already have the Rak pant for folks who like a zip off. To me the Rak is for touring, while the deluge is for emergencies, trail riding, and desert touring (where you don't actually expect rain, but you still need a rain kit just in case). The rak is meant to be worn all day when needed, over a years-long trip if needed, whereas the deluge is meant to come on when it rains and off when it stops.

    For stashing the Rak: I've been rolling mine up and cinching it to the MOLLE panel on my R80 or BC Duffle with a voile strap or two, like this pic (but the Rak rolls up much smaller). Not sure if that helps, but just wanted to add that idea to your mix next time you're hunting for a spot!

    nice, thank you! if we make the new deluge packable enough, we might see some riders bringing it along as an around camp kit in addition to their primary ADV jacket. I think for a lot of riders who wear the classic ADV jackets with integrated armor, they end up bringing along a second jacket as well, because they don't want to wear their big jackets around town and as a rain jacket or wind block around camp, just because they're so big and bulky. There might be some interest in a super small rain/wind layer just on that basis alone. We'd definitely have to add hand pockets I think, for it to work well in that application. It's pretty weird to reach for a hand pocket and not have it be there, i mean in an around town/camp jacket as opposed to a purely technical ultralight rain or wind layer like the Houdini or LIM.

    Man i feel like you hit the nail on the head here. I think this is our biggest challenge with these rain kits. This is a brutal category. It's like the most commodified of all the outerwear hardshell categories. Every outdoor company in the world makes a simple affordable rain shell and most of us have an old one in our closet already. When you're making a simple waterproof breathable shell with a neck, two sleeves, two pockets, and a hood... how do you do anything special? And if we can't do anything special, why bother? I have been asking myself that question too, in addition to asking you guys.

    With the Deluge we made this really kick ass packable 3-layer eVent kit with an awesome face fabric and the best trims (but too safe & boring of a color) and sold it at a really compelling price compared to what another outdoor company would ask. But at the end of the day, everyone already has old jackets in their closet and not everyone is all that interested in or even understands the technical 'this fabric and zipper for that retail price' equation, and even if they do/did they just don't really care all that much because their needs are already largely met by things they already own or are accustomed to buying from other companies. Like even if they take the time to be like 'hey that's actually a really good price for that jacket' they're still going to follow up that thought with something like 'but I already have an old jacket in my closet, and I could just use that instead and if I crash on it I'm not out $250.' I'm not sure how to compete with that. We need to be actually solving a problem not just making something for something's sake or filling a gap in our product line.

    We (on the Mosko team I mean) all use our emergency layers so much that we really want to make one. So there is a strong "supply side" motivation to do this. I just want it to be the most awesome one out there. That qualification that can include the price point if that's a factor of 'awesome' when it comes to this category, which I think it is. It's got to be better for riding than that old waterproof jacket already hanging in the closet which was designed for some other sport, better than what you can get from another moto company, better for riding than what you can get new in other sports. We have the direct pricing model working in our favor on this so we ought to be able to do something cool.

    I don't care if it's not a top revenue producer for Mosko or if our margins are low because it's a commodity category, just as long as we can sell enough units to move an MOQ every 24 months and therefore keep improving the design in future years and keep the snowball rolling. I DO care that it's the best one out there in this category (not the one that sells the most units, just the best one) and that it solves a real problem for riders including me and the rest of the Mosko team. The 'category' I'm talking about is specifically: an ultralight emergency rain/wind layer for trail and desert riding.

    What does that look like?

    When I answer that question for myself personally I keep coming back around to these super tiny ultralight layers like the Houdini and LIM with just a few simple moto-specific mods (like the cuffs and removable hood) combined with a really compelling price - a price that reflects the fact that i already have some old jackets in my closet including two of the prior generation Deluge, plus i might crash on it and destroy it and fix it with duct tape. On top of that it's gotta look cool (i.e. the color and fit) and work well around camp and ideally also around town on rainy days and even just for wearing to work or around our property.
  12. kubcat

    kubcat Riding is Eudaemonic Supporter

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    I'm on the East Coast. What's a desert? When I go riding, I see a lot of traffic, so I think there are a lot of other people living around here also.:D We don't buy rain shells for emergency use only. We buy rain shells for WHEN we need rain protection, which is at least once or twice on every trip. Weight is secondary to function. Performance is relative to price. For quick changes under the overpass while its pouring out, full zip is a requirement. I also hear Europe is much more like where I live than the southwest US or the high deserts of the Pac NW. You guys are from Washington, so why are you only focused on the conditions you find 500 miles south of you or 50 miles east? Without taking these realities into account, I fear you are targeting a severely limited geographic market.
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  13. SFC_Ren

    SFC_Ren Been here awhile

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    I believe you're confusing the "Type" of riding with the "where/geographical location" of the riding. Mosko isn't Klim or Revit. If you want to tour around on pavement (as identified by your changing under an overpass, and seeing lots of people comment) for thousands of miles maybe in that respect Mosko is not making gear for you. Mosko gear is primarily for riding off-road with limited on road riding, yes their high end gear "Basilisk" has outstanding abrasion resistance but it is still designed to primarily be removed and rolled up on the bike when you get to the trail. It's a specific design philosophy, that is perfect for the market they want to target (their own riding style). If that riding style doesn't fit you then, yeah offer suggestions, but don't get butt hurt when they are not seriously taken into consideration because you are trying to turn Mosko gear into something that Mosko isn't. Just go find a product/company that makes products that fit your riding style.
  14. Sunaj

    Sunaj Been here awhile

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    I’m with you on the ‘when it rains’ vs emergency. I’m Dutch and we do rain identical to the British: a lot and most trips see at least one shower.

    However the ultralight shells can provide that rain protection just fine. But I must say that I choose a goretex paclite product for that reason. Unbelievable high water column rating and lovely breathable fabric. Function first.

    So I would say:
    Waterproof function first
    Weight second
    Pack size third
    Price fourth
    Simplicity fifth, but simplicity will help on the second, third, and fourth point.

    But in terms of limited geography, I’m worried that these specific shells will always be pricey next to a goretex adv suit but also pricey for just an emergency jacket that could be replaced with a temporary garbage bag...

    I will not wear an one-layer-fits-all goretex suit on my travels anymore. It sucks, they’re heavy and do everything just ‘ok’ instead of great. But it took years stubbornness to adopt the layered approach. Klim got me there because I needed a down jacket for a thermal layer and that made me see the light.

    Not many motorcyclists have seen that light... at least not in Europe. I applaud Adventure Spec, Klim, and Mosko Moto for providing wonderful layering gear for this niche geography.
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  15. ZoomerP

    ZoomerP Long timer Supporter

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    Good list. I'd add Ventilation just below Waterproof.

    It's difficult to accomplish, but in my experience, well ventilated rain gear outperforms anything that relies too heavily on a semi-permeable membrane for moisture transfer away from an active body.
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  16. TrevorG

    TrevorG Been here awhile

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    I'd be into a basilisk jacket if it had storm flaps over the zips and perhaps a hi Viz option.
  17. Sunaj

    Sunaj Been here awhile

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    Ventilation means zippers, so added weight and waterproof failure points.

    I haven’t missed ventilation in the LIM. If I’m hot I take it off. And Goretex paclite has not yet been hot enough to take it off be because of it.

    And to be honest I don’t really expect a jacket to solve my rain issues and my sweat issues. Layers solve those issues.
  18. Nowwhat

    Nowwhat I'll Go Second... Super Supporter

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    Is shakedry viable for moto?....

    More traditional hard facing farbric on shoulders outside of arms and backpack zone...and shakedry on the other bits for massive ventilation improvement?

    I am playing with the idea of a shakedry Under my Baja S4 suit jacket....
  19. RyanC

    RyanC Adventurer Supporter

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    My shakedry jacket is my go-to 'emergency' rain jacket. Regardless of what bike I'm riding I always have it with me since it packs so small and is an effective rain jacket. You're right to be concerned about the wear zones though - while I haven't had any issues wearing it with my Klim pack yet I haven't done it a lot and it definitely isn't designed to withstand that 'abuse'. Great jacket though.
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  20. flamingm0e

    flamingm0e Long timer Supporter

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    Got my Workhorse Jersey in today...I love the materials, and the Cyan really pops. Can't wait to go try it out.
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