Mosko Moto Soft Bags for Offroad & Dualsport

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by Sideoff, Oct 14, 2013.

  1. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    What I mean by 'trail & desert' is that those are the two scenarios where an ultralight emergency rain layer like the one we're talking about is needed. "Trail" refers (to me) to day-riding singletrack on, for example, 250-450cc dirt bikes with the bare minimum amount of gear. Usually this is in the mountains and trees, often up at altitude, and there's often the potential for sudden rain, cold temps, being out after dark, or a surprise night of camping. You're not expecting those things but you know they could happen, hence the need for an emergency rain layer in your pack.

    Sometimes pics help illustrate the scenarios better than words. Here's Ash in her Deluge for example, on our local trails, in the mountains.

    [​IMG]

    "Desert" could be touring or could be day riding but it refers to any terrain where you really don't expect there to be any rain so you're basically not bringing rain gear on the trip (ie Death Valley, Moab) except that you know you gotta bring at least something because if you don't then it'll be the one desert trip in a hundred that you wished you had. There's also the day ride desert scenario where it's not going to rain but you want a windbreaker in case it gets cold. On this week long trip to death valley a bunch of us had Deluge kits. There was a very low chance of any serious rain happening over the week or of even wearing a jacket at all for very long, so why take up more space?

    [​IMG]

    In both of these scenarios you want to pack the bare minimum rain gear but if you need it, you really need it. For most other scenarios, like what the one you laid out where it's raining a lot and frequently, hopefully we have that pretty well covered by the Basilisk or Rak, and soon we're adding the IR kit to the mix as well. If I'm expecting daily rain, the kit we're talking about here - the deluge - is not the one I would reach for. I'd take a Rak or Basilisk. They're more durable and designed for wearing for longer periods of time and more rain. That said there is also a certain type of minimalist rider (like @Sunaj I'm guessing, based on his comments and the Haglofs jacket, and @wachs, and some folks on our team) who take an emergency layer as their only layer no matter what the conditions are. At the levels of waterproofing we're talking about here (20kmm+) the thinness of the material doesn't really matter. You could make a drysuit out of that. However the lighter material is going to flap more in the wind (a hydration backpack helps) and it is not going to take a hit as well.

    I like how you put this. Everything we do comes from a 'dirt first' perspective. When we're riding pavement it's usually with the goal of eventually reaching dirt, even if we're on a 1290 riding to another state. Other brands have the long haul pavement and graded gravel space pretty well covered with their big all-in-one jackets. Personally I now prefer separate armor no matter what the surface but reasonable people can and do disagree all the time, which is part of why we're making the IR kit. Philosophy is a great word for it.

    Sunaj i appreciate your comments and I can tell we're on the same page. It's awesome to hear that you came around to it stubbornly. I was like that too and now I have the zeal of the convert. We are still in the minority but that could change. I see more and more people riding in separate armor. I think one of the biggest obstacles is the armor itself, which is why we're designing our own with Rheon's help.

    One thing I would add to what you said is that from my perspective 'simplicity' helps ALL the points including waterproofing not just 2, 3, & 4. When you think about it it's kind of nuts that companies use these incredible waterproof/breathable fabrics at like $18-25 a yard and then immediately cut all those holes in them for vents and pockets. Especially in a sport where you're riding straight into the rain faster and longer than almost any other activity. The water is not going to get in through the fabric on the jacket it's always going to be those holes you cut to add all those features. Because just one of the 25-30 zippers (not an exaggeration, that's the actual number of exterior zippers on many ADV kits. some have even more.) isn't fully closed and parked in its garage, or because it is leaking or has failed. It only takes one.

    This is a message I would like to help spread: venting and waterproofing work against each other. They are opposites. More of one means less of the other.

    The crazy amount of venting that is standard on ADV gear in my opinion comes from a) riders wanting abrasion protection on pavement and b) riders with integrated armor who don't want to take their jackets off because their armor is in the jacket. Those two things mean when it's hot you can't take your jacket off, so instead you end up wearing rain gear all the time in all weather and temperatures, and then cutting a ton of holes in it so you don't overheat. If on the other hand you're on dirt with separate armor it's better to not have a ton of vents and zippers in your rain gear and instead you just remove your jacket when you're hot. The jacket will be less likely to leak when you need it plus it'll last longer.

    Do you mean having mechanical venting in rain gear? For emergency rain gear, it has only one purpose which is to stop the water from getting in. As soon as it stops raining you take the gear off. It seems better to me to have no vents in a kit like that, because you wouldn't ever open the vents in the rain so why have them at all? The zippers will make it less packable, more expensive, and more likely to leak. I wasn't sure what you meant by well ventilated rain gear.
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  2. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    Please report back I would like to know! I'm curious about shakedry. I should get one and try it myself.
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  3. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    Oh that's cool! I need to try this. It sounds like durability is the weak spot on these but I have never owned one. Clearly they are catching on in cycling.
  4. ZoomerP

    ZoomerP Long timer Supporter

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    No, I agree that mechanical venting doesn't need to be a primary consideration for emergency rain gear, designed to be used as you described. Giving it adjustable cuffs and the ability to open the collar some would be as far as I'd go on that type of jacket, and even that's not terribly important.

    Generally speaking, I find that membranes alone aren't capable of keeping up with the moisture coming off of an active body, leaving me in an expensive, sweaty bag. Mechanical venting is crucial to evacuating moisture before it condenses on the interior of the membrane, reducing its ability to get moisture out of the system.

    I haven't handled any MM clothing, but after handling the R80 and Hood that arrived today, I'm very impressed. The next time I'm shopping for riding gear, I'll start by seeing what MM has created.
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  5. kubcat

    kubcat Riding is Eudaemonic Supporter

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    No, you've made several false assumptions. Now I will make one - you have never ridden trails for days/weeks at a time in the northeast. Am I correct? I do ride a lot of road miles, because I live in NY and they have either outlawed trail riding or paved it over. I have no choice but to ride for hours to get to trails. While riding those hours to get to trails, it often rains, so I need to suit up quickly on the way to the trails. If I am already on the trails, the full zip is even more important to me. I am an aggressive, ATGATT BDR rider who never takes the bypasses around the expert sections, so trails and protective gear are where its at for me. So no, I am not mistaking geo for riding surface. I am merely relating what a "trail" means to those of us in the Northeast. BTW I believe FOR MOTO SPECIFIC RIDING, Mosko gear is in the top 3 Mfgr, depending on the specific use case, and I put my money where my mouth is - just check my closet. You're right, Mosko isn't Klim or Rev'It, but they are all three competing with each other in overlapping categories. Sometimes I want built in protection and built in WP, so I grab my Klim Badlands. Sometimes I want modular armor so I grab a jersey and my Basilisks. I am the farthest thing from Butthurt - I am a fanboi. I also believe Pete (and most others) gets my point, even if you don't.

    Well, maybe you didn't get my point as I assumed above. I guess my point was that there is at least a 3rd kind of riding a lot of your customers do and that is aggressive BDR type riding on all types of bikes. the two scenarios you've narrowed it to are quite limiting. Also, I wouldn't categorize a $250 shell as an ultralight emergency layer. None of us really need what backpackers consider ultralight, because the bike carries the weight. What we really value is ultra compact. I know they usually go hand in hand, but as you already pointed out, some features are more important than space - like a full zip for me at least. Also, we're back again to the utility question. If it truly is just an emergency layer, then its coming out my closet of current gear, not being purpose bought just for that "once in a blue moon" emergency. If it is an "emergencies only" item, it sure won't pry $250 from my hands, which are usually eager to buy another cool piece of gear.
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  6. ZoomerP

    ZoomerP Long timer Supporter

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    Taken to an extreme, I agree. On the other hand, a balance can be struck, or at least attempted.

    For example, allowing intake venting at the cuffs or forearms, along with the neck, and exhaust venting on the back, could allow mechanical ventilation, without the addition of +20 zippers & flaps. Make the openings sealable with Velcro lined flaps, and acknowledge that the garment isn't designed to be 100% water tight.

    Riding with those vents open may result in some water getting into the sleeves, and possibly down the back if riding slow enough, but the alternative could be riding in a sweat soaked top, even if it's effectively sealed from rain & ventilation. Unless I'm mistaken, no shell membrane effectively transports moisture in liquid form to the exterior surface. Being wet for rain or wet from sweat doesn't matter; you're wet.
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  7. JHof44

    JHof44 AlteredAdjuster

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    The wife just ordered me a workhorse jersey for our anniversary. I’m very excited for my first piece of Mosko kit
  8. Bbrreenntt

    Bbrreenntt Fuelling your Appetite for Adventure

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    Interesting that most people are focused on the details of the jacket. Makes sense. I just bought a pair of Deluge pants in the clearance sale. Didn't buy the jacket because I I have a lightweight BD stretch rainproof shell that I wear when I know there's not a lot of hwy riding. The thing I hate about the BD jacket is the hood that flaps in the wind. I love that it doesn't look like a motorcycle jacket. I love that it collapses to nothing and is cheap enough to replace if I fall/rip it. I'm really excited to try out my deluge pants though. I've ridden with the same pair of Klim pants for the last 7 years. They have cordura, mesh and some stretch panels. I've been caught in some hella heavy rainstorms, and although, I've gotten soaking wet, I've never been so hard done by that I had to stop riding due to discomfort. A pant like the deluge, combo'd with my pants, or a something Semi-water proof like the woodsman (or ADV Overalls ;) would be perfect.
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  9. RandomGRK

    RandomGRK Been here awhile

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    I had a question to Mosko Moto about my Woodsman ITB that I just recently purchased. My Leatt Dual Axis knee guards tend to poke out a little through the material. Mosko confirmed this would accelerate wear and tear but that if it did, first repair is on them which is great. For those running the the woodsman with similar knee pads, have you seen any issues? 228955345_3054387271473116_5417419541401566859_n.jpg 231032351_633002017605464_1296510995416167650_n.jpg 228912528_215842010550083_7199409585382276199_n.jpg
  10. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    Great points on the venting.

    Yeah i agree with you. The inherent breathability of a membrane only goes so far. They weren't really meant to be worn when it's hot. Membranes shine when it's cold outside and you're being moderately athletic. A single mechanical vent or just unzipping a bit or a snap back collar or opening the sleeves, will do more breathing than the entire membrane on the rest of the kit. 'Breathability' was really a genius marketing word. It makes it sound like air is moving in and out, which of course it's not (except eVent, but even there it's just a tiny amount).

    Right on @kubcat thanks for the support and thanks for speaking up for northeast riders! I'm actually in Maine right now with my folks. This is what I was looking for with the original post: i.e. feedback on why the Deluge didn't have wider appeal, and you hit on several very direct reasons why. Like for example that you already have a lot of gear in your closet and if you're going to spend $$ you'd rather spend it on something exciting than something you'll hardly ever use. I can totally relate to that. BTW you are not alone on wanting the full side zips, that has come up many times from many sources.

    This exchange has helped a lot, thanks for taking the time to weigh in. Scottie is reading all of this too. He's back home in Washington. He doesn't post much but he lurks. I mentioned it on the blog and we put it out on social as well. I feel like we're narrowing in on some concrete ideas for a reinvention of this kit. It isn't going to please everyone but I just hope it keeps the ball moving down the court in a positive way. These items, and the entire line, are going to evolve and distill over time. We're still early in the process from my perspective even though actually we've been working on apparel for 7 years now! That you put Mosko in the same category as those other larger brands that we look up to and are customers of, felt really good to hear. Thank you!!!
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  11. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    That's exactly what we use them for i think you'll be stoked! Let us know if you have any feeback!
  12. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    Hey @RandomGRK I think there's going to be some wear on those. I just went over to thumpertalk and read a bunch of posts about knee braces and wear. If anything happens we will fix it for you and maybe we can even reinforce it. Hopefully, someone else can chime in here with some firsthand experience. Those pads are plastic so it won't be as hard on the pants as say a metal brace would be. But also when you trap fabric -even leather - between two hard surfaces no matter what they're made of (i.e. the brace and the bike) and then vibrate about a million times, that's a tough battle for the fabric to win. Let me check and see if I can find more info and again hopefully someone will chime in here.
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  13. spuh

    spuh Long timer Supporter

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    G'day Pete, since you're here, would you be so kind as to address @RandomGRK's question? I just got a pair of Woodsmen and have the same issue (to a lesser extent). Does the constant stretching over knee armour constitute a problem?

    And just like that, my request is granted! Or maybe we were just typing at the same time.
  14. ZoomerP

    ZoomerP Long timer Supporter

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    Water intrusion through the crotch is a common issue. All of the seams & the fly come together, and just make it a tough spot to keep dry, plus the fly adds bulk that tends to cause pooling while sitting. Has that been a problem with the Deluge or other MM pants?

    The reason I ask is that I've wondered about deleting the fly and using a side zip instead. I don't know if that would help in one area only to create a problem elsewhere, but I can see how moving that out of the crotch could simplify the design.
  15. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    Hey Spuh! I was just reading on thumpertalk about people saying they do everything from adding duct tape and moleskin inside their pants to shaving down sharp edges and corners on the braces. It sounds like no matter what, braces are hard on pants.

    I just stumbled on a bunch of info about knee brace pants (like this), and also knee brace sleeves that fold down over the sharp edges.
  16. Sideoff

    Sideoff Long timer

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    The deluge doesn't have a fly but the rak does, although whenever we put in a fly we also put a waterproof gusset behind it. Figuring out where water in the crotch or butt came from is a tricky business. It could be migrating to that area from a zipper, could be a seam that has stretched or opened, could be from the waist. One explanation we heard recently of why soggy butts happen on motos is that waterproof breathable membranes in general are not designed to have water massaged into them with pressure over a long period of time. Like they can withstand high pressure on the water column test or a hydrostatic test but that's not the same thing as taking a motorcycle seat, putting constant water on top of the fabric, and then massaging and kneading the water into the membrane for hours. It's a situation that is unique to moto, no other sport I can think of has it in quite the same way. The closest thing would be skiers sitting on a chairlift on a rainy day, and even that is not directly comparable, but a lot of skiers are also familiar with that soggy butt feeling in those conditions. This year we doubled up the material in the butt on the Basilisk as an experiment, for that and also for some extra abrasion protection back there. Light pooling on top of the pants shouldn't cause any issues. Also the wind and motion tends to keep things moving around.
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  17. RandomGRK

    RandomGRK Been here awhile

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    Thanks for the detail. I'll have a new option for knee pads soon so maybe it wont be too much of an issue for me personally. I have a pair of Forcefied Pro Pant XV 2 Air on the way which should be far less abrasive against the surface.
  18. spuh

    spuh Long timer Supporter

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    Yes, that part I know about and the wear on the inside of the pants is part of the price we pay for protection. I was questioning more the stretching of the pants material than the abrasion. Will the constant stretch damage the pants?
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  19. Sunaj

    Sunaj Been here awhile

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    Soggy crotch... hateful stuff.

    I use the Berghaus goretex paclite rain pants (185 grams in XL) as my rain shell against soggy crotch. Has no fly zipper, but a very elastic wait band that is pulled down easily when a road side piss is in order.

    It also has two large zips van bottom to top, making it very easy to put on quickly.

    Do I like it? Not really. But that’s due to the fact that it are rain pants, I hate that piece of kit. These work nicely enough. Wet pants underneath become dry again due to the breathability and evaporation from body heat and it keeps rain away. Still it is flappy while riding and I look like a scarecrow wearing it. #fashionfirst

    I’m on the verge of trying rain shorts, but it’s mental step to take. They’re available in retail for cyclists but the Rolling Hobo does it on the cheap perfectly: https://therollinghobo.com/2019/06/ultralight-rain-shorts.html

    IMG_5396.png
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  20. svtride

    svtride Been here awhile Supporter

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    I noted the same with the OTB Woodsman....https://advrider.com/f/threads/mosk...froad-dualsport.927215/page-751#post-42769608.
    I opted to find thinner knee guards..I felt the pants tight and restrictive in the knee area with the Leatts for the way I like to DS ride.
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