Moto Guzzi pre- Piagio vs post Piagio

Discussion in 'Moto Bellissima: All Other Dualsports' started by Qaz, Jun 29, 2019.

  1. kickstandsup

    kickstandsup Long timer Supporter

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    Yes, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, 15 U.S.C. § 2301 et seq., although you usually go with the state law first. The requirements of each state law vary. The AZ statute is A.R.S. §§ 44-1263, 1264.
    #21
  2. luscombe

    luscombe n00b

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    Piaggio did very little with Guzzi from 2005 until introducing the V85TT which is a well conceived, well executed product. Why it took them that long is a long story having a lot to do with internal politics of the type that plague old inward looking manufacturing companies like Piaggio. They acquired Guzzi as a result of buying Aprilia, with Guzzi coming along for the ride. The Aprilia acquisition was mainly a buy out of Piaggio's rising competition in the scooter market, a strategic versus product oriented move. From there, with no particular ideas of their own for Guzzi product development, Piaggio funded and continued introduction of Aprilia's mostly ill conceived ideas for Guzzi, meaning the range of BMW-copy-cat bikes plus the Griso - which Aprilia had developed pre-Piaggio as a updated replacement for the Centauro, but not produced. The only productive or innovative thing Piaggio did was to realize that with the bigger copy-cat bikes failing miserably in the market place, they needed to refresh the existing 1970s tech small block bikes... which lo and behold worked because they are an original product which filled a market niche. I believe the V85TT concept is a result of Piaggio seriously stepping back, reflecting on what actually worked and sold, and why. The bike is almost 15 years late, but its a very good bike by all accounts.
    #22
  3. motomoda

    motomoda Long timer

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    I find this conjecture that the CARC bikes are 'Copycat' BMW's daft but I'm sure we've had this discussion elsewhere so we can agree to disagree.
    #23
  4. luscombe

    luscombe n00b

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    Aprilia and subsequently Piaggio attempting to copy BMWs twin cylinder product line starting in 2006 is beyond obvious, they even incorporated a styling element (what’s become known as the telelever emulator) that attempted to make the front suspension of the Breva look like an R1150R. The rest of the Aprilia designed line matched BMW 1:1, Breva = R, Norge = RT, Stelvio = GS. That was daft.

    The funny thing is that BMW subsequently returned the favor by copying the pre-Aprilia Centauro/Griso concept with their R nine T!

    Today it doesn't matter, those models are all dead and Guzzis sales are going a bit nuts (relative to any time since the 70s) with the combination of V85TT and the V7/V9 commuter bikes... all of which are proving (on topic) reliable. It was touch and go whether Piaggio would ‘do a Gilera’ (i.e. kill Guzzi with incompetence) for a long time but I think that time is now over.
    #24
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  5. motomoda

    motomoda Long timer

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    The V85 does, so far, appear to be reliable. I'm reserving judgement until I ride one but I find the design disappointing and insipid.
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  6. slipknot

    slipknot Long timer

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    "Aprilia and subsequently Piaggio attempting to copy BMWs twin cylinder product line starting in 2006 is beyond obvious, they even incorporated a styling element (what’s become known as the telelever emulator) that attempted to make the front suspension of the Breva look like an R1150R. The rest of the Aprilia designed line matched BMW 1:1, Breva = R, Norge = RT, Stelvio = GS. That was daft."

    To copy an obvious success is not daft. To not include abs and cruise on models that should compete with the originals is stupid and guarantees failure in a market that demands those items. To poorly execute promotion and dealer support is daft. I'm not driving eight hours to buy anything especially form a dealer that has no history or commitment.

    Moto Guzzi designs are good, the general quality is good, but the parent company should sell out and look into buying and selling panty hose, condoms or cheese. Just from a point of pride and respect the Italians should force Piaggio to get the fuck out of the way.
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  7. luscombe

    luscombe n00b

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    The latter points are exactly why it is daft to copy somebody else’s products and business model, when it is one you don’t have the resources to execute, as in this case. From 2007, with BMW having introduced the R12R the year prior, the copy-cat Guzzis were completely outclassed and after the initial MY 2006 sales blip to 10,000 units, the bottom fell out. The current Guzzi strategy and products are much, much better matched to the market and competition, successfully selling Guzzi's strengths (which are many) not weaknesses.
    #27
  8. Qaz

    Qaz Been here awhile

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    I hope Moto Guzzi get there act together, I love them. But the three dealerships near me have gotten rid of them ( 1 Pre-Piaggio, 2-Post) because of lack of support and parts. The closest dealers are now 2-2.5 hours away, which I consider too far. The V85TT really appeals to me, but it is going to have to prove its reliability to me ie. when people start rolling up 80-100,000 miles then I will consider it reliable.
    #28
  9. slipknot

    slipknot Long timer

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    The business model is universal. Give the customer what the customer wants. Guzzi slacked. The appeal of the Guzzi is beyond what BMW can muster but BMW offered the gizmos, if one dismisses abs, cruise, whatever. The fact is BMW copied the Harley business model but created their own culture. BMW was another backwater brand like Guzzi until corporate saw the light. Harley led the way. Dismiss their product but Harley created the model that BMW developed based on what the customers told BMW how they saw themselves. That is what it is all about, how we see ourselves, a cowboy smoking Marlboro or an explorer on a motorcycle, it is all ego and emotion. All successful marketing will never stray from that. People will rationalize that they made a purchase based on data, facts, etc., but how they perceive themselves is the determining factor. I think a really serious problem Guzzi now has beyond the dealer network and parent company shortsightedness is a long history of being that oddball Italian company that only oddballs and dweebs ride. Fortunately I just learned that a new dealer is within 2.5 hours. I remain the hopeful oddball dweeb.
    #29
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  10. luscombe

    luscombe n00b

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    Those of us with long memories will remember Guzzi being voted the manufacturer with the best backup in the US market (really!) but it was long before any buyouts... early 90s. IIRC it was a Rider Magazine poll and it reflected reality of the time - the then importer in North Carolina was outstanding. It didn’t have much effect on new bike sales, which were simultaneously at a low ebb.

    Any business model needs to match the scale of the business, not somebody else’s business. What’s needed to sell bikes like Guzzis in 2020 is a capable, distinctive product and an authentic image, both of which Guzzi now has. Things are looking up now, if the immediate objective is say 20K sales... or three to four times what they’ve been selling. I don’t think anybody at Piaggio sees BMWs 160K annual sales (I won’t mention HD, given their retraction) as a realistic target for Guzzi any more, at least not until they’ve earned an upward sales trajectory over a number of years. Delusions of grandeur didn’t get that job done, but matching the product to the business model and available resources does appear to be working.
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  11. danketchpel

    danketchpel Long timer

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    I've not experienced pre and post Piaggio but from my experience I'd say Piaggio is NOT a good thing for Guzzi. They seem to be very good at pissing off the dealerships as I've watched a few come into selling Guzzis and Aprilias only to leave a few years later. Most didn't have very many good things to say about Piaggio from a dealer point of view.

    My personal take on Guzzi is that if you have to rely on a dealer for service work then you better have a good solid one near by. I'm quite self sufficient for service but need parts and for that I look to the web to order which does kinda suck as I'd like to be able to order locally.

    I've had little problem with my '13 Stelvio, it's been a pretty solid bike. I did have one of the more horrible clutches that fortunately my local dealer (at the time, now gone) fought to get fixed and after that has been flawless. I had a rear drive pinion seal leak fixed under warranty. I had a fork seal leak I fixed myself. Around 35k miles the crankcase breather tubes cracked and started leaking oil, fixed myself. That's about it in just under 40k miles.

    I've owned all 4 Japanese brands, along with German, Austrian, several Italian and British. I find faults with all of them, some worse than others. But most bikes have at least 1 or 2 things that need to be put right. I think for the long term a great deal has to do with how the bike is setup and serviced (ie attention to detail) and that's often hard to find at a dealership.

    I believe if Guzzi could ever get a really solid dealership network they'd do themselves a huge favor. I don't know if that can ever happen but....... I keep dreaming.

    In the end the success of a brand really depends on the dealerships, not only for sales but for service, parts, and repeat buyers coming back for another purchase. I think KTM and Triumph have done very well to expand their dealership networks and are good examples to follow. Ducati has expanded but also some are falling out and their dealerships are God awful expensive and hit or miss on quality of work or customer service. You're better off with quality Indy Ducati shops or do your own work. BMW killed off many of their really good dealers when they went Harley style which is unfortunate.
    #31
  12. Qaz

    Qaz Been here awhile

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    "I believe if Guzzi could ever get a really solid dealership network they'd do themselves a huge favor. I don't know if that can ever happen but....... I keep dreaming." No truer words could be spoken.

    On a different note. I think they would be much better off playing their retro hand a little more. The V7 line has been very successful for them and it looks like the V85 may be another winner. I think a sport touring bike, very similar to the Spada or SP1 would do well. I thought of building one using a V7II and a SP fairing, but the V7II engine struggles to maintain 70-75mph in a stiff head wind on the highway. So I played with the V9 engine, a little better but still not enough better. The small block does not have that freight train pull of the old big block 1000cc + engines. I have no experience with the V85 engine, maybe that is the answer. Personally, I think the company is going the wrong direction with the 1400cc bikes.
    #32
  13. danketchpel

    danketchpel Long timer

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    I very much agree that Piaggio should let Guzzi do the retro/classic style bikes and Aprilia can do the modern stuff.

    I so very badly want a modern 850 T3. I like the styling of the V7III Special, but it's too small and too anemic. If they built a scaled up version (ie full size bike) using the V9/V85 drivetrain that would be a very good thing. And keep the shiny bits, don't really care for the blacked out look.

    I'd like to see Guzzi get more serious with 4 valve heads for the current V9/V85 for a true retro sporty bike, ie similar to a LeMans or 1000S. It doesn't need to be nutzo powerful, but a bump up from the V85 tune should be very doable for road use. And give it quality suspension. This would be inline with what Triumph is doing with their Thruxton models.

    I didn't care for the Bobber or Roamer. I give them kudos for trying, and I wouldn't care if they kept the models but I'd sure like to see more traditional models along side them.

    I'm cool with the California 1400 models. I rode one and was impressed. If I was looking for a bagger that's what I'd buy. It does fit Guzzi's history as they've long offered touring models.
    #33
  14. motomoda

    motomoda Long timer

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    A 4V Head is the next thing in the works, a lot of the witness marks and metal is already in the castings. Whether it will be a Hi Cam design or simply an additional four valves to the pushrod engine we don't know. If it's a Hi Cam it might rekindle my interest. If it's a pushrod setup I'll yawn and walk away, again.......
    #34
  15. danketchpel

    danketchpel Long timer

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    I wouldn't be adverse to a pushrod setup IF it rev'd and worked as expected. I'm not really that keen on pushrods but they can work to fairly high rpm if setup right. It's hard to argue with what American V8s do with them.

    I'd prefer something better but if that makes it all happen (with good end results) then I'd sure rather have that then just a 2V setup with the current power levels. Though the V85 ain't too shabby in output.

    The old big blocks didn't do so bad with pushrods and 2V, but they didn't meet EPA/EU regs either. The 4v setup allows for a much better burning chamber design.

    Fingers crossed there's something more going on in the Guzzi development labs.
    #35
  16. Qaz

    Qaz Been here awhile

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    After doing a little more investigating, I found that I am correct. The small block Guzzi's are not long legged at all. That in my opinion is one of the best things about Big block guzzi"s is the relaxed lope of the engine. The V85 turns 5,000rpm's @ 80 and redline is 6,800. That is running hard down the road, that is tiring on a trip! I think Moto Guzzi has forgot what got them to the party.
    #36
  17. BOOTLACE

    BOOTLACE Bikie Scum. Supporter

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    #37
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  18. motomoda

    motomoda Long timer

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    Yes? And?
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  19. speedysheep

    speedysheep Been here awhile

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    My V85 turns 4800 rpm at 80 mph and feels very happy at that speed. Not tiring at all, particularly with the cruise set.
    #39
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  20. Qaz

    Qaz Been here awhile

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    Bootlace- Thankyou, that is a beautiful bike. How many RPM's is that V7 Sport turning over at 80mph?
    Does anyone else with a newer big block want to contribute how many RPM's their bike turns @ 80mph?
    #40