Motocross / Off-Road Bikes

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by Moto Jimmy, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. Lutz

    Lutz Fuzzy Rabbit

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    :fpalm

    [Edit: I'm not at all trying to make this into an argument. I'm just trying to be friendly in explaining that it's not as simple as you want it to be. I agree, where they happen to be a workable solution, hub motors are a cleaner, and probably more efficient design.]

    Big picture = physics. Sometimes what seems great at first glance to a layman doesn't pan out in the real world. I assure you, there are very good reasons why no serious automobile or motorcycle manufacturer is pursuing hub motors for high speed vehicles.
    #21
  2. Cat0020

    Cat0020 El cheapo

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    How often do you ride above 40 mph on a muddy trail?
    This was from 2014, hub motors have evolved since:

    [youtube]
    #22
  3. Cat0020

    Cat0020 El cheapo

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    2016:

    [youtube]
    #23
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  4. Lutz

    Lutz Fuzzy Rabbit

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    Those both illustrate my point. Those E-bikes are flirting with the outer margins of successful use of a hub motor, and/or within the confines of cruising on smooth roads and groomed bicycle trails.

    Here's a review of the Stealth Bomber.
    https://www.electricbike.com/stealth-bomber-review/
    Its rear wheel/motor already weighs 25 pounds, with essentially mountain bike grade components, and only makes just shy of 7 horsepower at peak. It has power to go fast-ish, but is lacking power to accelerate, especially up hill or from a stop. They are very clear that all that weight in the rear wheel negatively affects the handling and suspension performance of the bike, and that is something a prospective owner will need decide if they can "live with."

    Again, hub motors can work in low power runabouts. Scaling them up to higher power levels and stronger components - such as for mx / off road motorcycling - will make them much heavier, and impractical.
    #24
  5. MotoMatt50

    MotoMatt50 Adventurer

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    Somehow this conversation went from bikes that are REAL contenders in the off-road segment to batteries with bicycle bits strapped onto them? :confused
    #25
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  6. scot_douglas

    scot_douglas Dirt Harley Lovin' Supporter

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    Agreed. Any reading on suspension and handling will point to unsprung weight being a key factor to improving performance.
    #26
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  7. Cat0020

    Cat0020 El cheapo

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    Specify some performance parameters that you're looking for in a MX/offroad bike as thread topic.

    Are you jumping/landing tabletops on every single ride?

    Are you riding 100+ miles of trails every single ride?

    Are you looking for sub 150 lb. electric bike to fit within the parameters?

    Any decent rider can easily get accustom to handling difference between hub-drive vs chain drive, but the difference is that you don't have to waste time & money to clean or replace chain/sprockets over the lifetime of the bike.
    #27
  8. mousitsas

    mousitsas Long timer

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    Hub motors are great for simplicity but they have to be extremely heavy in order to produce any meaningful torque.
    As it has been already said, adding a gollop of unsprung mass on a 2 wheeler is the best possible way to screw handling and riding experience, especially offroad.
    Low power low weight units in the order of 500w yeah, why not, but a 15kg piece of lead on the wheel of a 50kg offroad bike, NOOO!!!
    #28
  9. Cat0020

    Cat0020 El cheapo

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    Can you supply a source to back up your claims?
    Provide some specific wattage, torque value and weight?

    Short Google search under 1 min, I found THIS

    34.4Nm @ 1000W motor, weigh in at 5 kg, not sure if that's complete wheel or just the motor.. but seems significantly less than 15 kg that you've claimed.

    I know there are other hub motors that are rated up to 1500 watt or more.

    Have you actually tried riding bikes with different motor configurations off-road to do a decent comparison? an off-road electric bike that's 50 kg in weight with a 15 kg motor (hub or central) specifically?

    How many hours have you ridden on any type of electric motored vehicle?

    What type of off-road riding have you done on them?

    Share your experience to support your claims please.
    #29
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  10. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    http://www.tacita.it/

    Italian comparative to the ALTA effort in the US. They offer enduro/mx, SM street motard and trail/rally versions of the T-Race electric moto. These are probably the most relevant to the OP's question.

    There is also a new cruiser styled road machine...
    #30
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  11. scot_douglas

    scot_douglas Dirt Harley Lovin' Supporter

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    I have experience of riding a full suspension MTB with a regular rear hub / gearing setup and then replacing that setup with a rohloff hub (14 speed , internally geared).

    The rohloff weighed approximately 1 kg more than the conventional setup. I wanted the rohloff for durability in 24 hour MTB races where I wouldn't have to worry about mud / dirt / water affecting my drivetrain. Any trouble with your gear - even if it is just a minor shifting problem - wears on you over 24 hours.

    The biggest problem I had was with rear suspension hop over rough terrain at speed. The rear wheel couldn't hold a line as well as the front through fast sweeping turns and would oversteer. Rear braking performance, especially over stutter bumps, went to hell.
    To compensate, I tried a stiffer spring rate and more damping, but it changed the balance of the bike and wanted to buck me over the bars in some G-out situations.

    In the end, I went back to a perfectly good, lightweight convention gearing setup.

    I know we won't change each other's minds, but that is my first - hand experience, and I feel it would translate to a lightweight e-cycle.
    #31
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  12. Cat0020

    Cat0020 El cheapo

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    Can you specify what kind of rear suspension it was?
    How much travel?
    Disc rear brake with floating or non-floating mount?
    #32
  13. Moto Jimmy

    Moto Jimmy Bushwacker

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    So we have another contender though it is not available for purchase until sometime this year. Price point has gotta be high since it's Italian. Looks legit!

    T-raceCross.JPG
    #33
  14. TBR

    TBR One Life ~ Live It...

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    Light, clean and silent.... https://ridecake.com
    CAKE develops uncompromising high performance electric off-road motorbikes. CAKE’s mission is to speed up the journey towards a zero emission society, while enhancing excitement and fun.

    All components are made from scratch to optimize the riding performance in this new category. Every little detail is elaborated for perfection, while considering the perspectives of sustainability.


    #34
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  15. scot_douglas

    scot_douglas Dirt Harley Lovin' Supporter

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    2002 Specialized Enduro pro. 130mm horst link rear suspension. Fixed rear caliper. Rohloff completely negated the stock air shock and I tried moving to a coil springed DH shock. Did not work.
    #35
  16. Cat0020

    Cat0020 El cheapo

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    Rohloff hub is great for reducing the complication of derailleurs & shifters, but not ideal for increase power output of a Mt. bike.
    Specialized Enduro is not the lighter suspension design to begin with, add weight of Rohloff hub that contribute zero to propelling force unlike hub-drive electric motor; of course performance suffer when you only have your legs that contribute to forward moving motion. Additional weight with no additional power output, what do you expect?
    #36
  17. scot_douglas

    scot_douglas Dirt Harley Lovin' Supporter

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    You have no idea what you're talking about. Period. You selectively ignore data as it suits you.
    1. Nowhere did I state I was looking for a change in power - I was looking for a change in drivetrain reliability. This is important in 24 hour MTB racing.
    2. "Specialized Enduro is not the lighter suspension design to begin with" - in 2002, it was one of the most stable platforms for endurance racing, AND worked very well as set up by the manufacturer. It was the added weight of the Rohloff that ruined the response of the rear suspension.

    What do I expect? I expect to have an informed debate about unsprung weight vs. suspension response and handling.
    YOU asked for personal experience on this and I gave you one example.

    What I see is a troll that tries to fit data to a his belief, not someone interested in learning from others.
    #37
  18. Cat0020

    Cat0020 El cheapo

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    Consider the power-to-weight ratio of your MTB with Rohloff hub vs eletric bike or motorcycle with hub driven motor rear wheel. (human legs w/avg. power output of 150-250 watt vs 400-700 watt motor) Did you have additional power output on your MTB to help with extra weight of Rohloff hub drivetrain?
    NO, therefore you are comparing apple to orange.

    You have no clue how a hub-driven electric bike would handle, just assume that you know from riding a Rohloff drivetrain MTB.

    Any decent rider would be able to get accustom to the handling difference in extra weight in the rear hub, maybe you're just not that good of a bike rider.

    BTW, assuming anything about me personally doesn't help you win any debate, just further shows that you like to assume things that you have no clue of.
    #38
  19. papalobster

    papalobster With Gusto!

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    Orrrrr.... Be like Jeff Fredette and win an ice racing championship on an Alta Redshift:deal

    He took home the #1 plate from the Ice Racing nationals in Cadillac, MI last week.

    I was looking for an article, but can't find one. It's on Fredettes FB page.
    #39
  20. Lutz

    Lutz Fuzzy Rabbit

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    That's awesome!
    #40