Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by _cy_, Jan 20, 2012.

  1. SoilSampleDave

    SoilSampleDave Dr. Zaius was right!

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    Sadly no, the forum just pings me when there is an update to the thread.
  2. gefr

    gefr Life is a trip

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    Hey guys, let's stop this willy contest, it is pointless and... embarrassing and molesting an informative thread.
  3. Ste7ios

    Ste7ios Been here awhile

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    Already answered but let's go again from the convenience of a laptop and not a tablet...

    What you describe is not desulfation. Desulfation is a deliberate overcharging for some moments. A 10% increase of the recommended charging voltage (~15V) but you may find other implementations / techniques as well. It can be harmful on VRLA batteries (AGM, Gel cell) and a killer for LiFePO4. (https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/equalizing_charge)

    The charging system of a vehicle is far from perfect. It even tortures lead acid batteries.

    Lithium chemistries don't like to be fully charged but we shouldn't generalize. Every member of the lithium family has its own properties. LiFePO4 can tolerate much more abuse than most of the other members. That's a reason why this lithium chemistry doesn't need a BMS.

    Definitely with that usage will not give us the maximum of its cycle life potential (around 1000 - 2000 cycles) but it's still much higher than AGM's life cycles (150 - 200).


    No, not at all. A battery is the number of the interconnected cells in series (for Voltage) and in parallel (for capacity).

    The nominal voltage of a lead acid cell is ~2.0V (in reality it's a bit higher and many times depends on the manufacturer) and the nominal voltage of LiFePO4 is 3.2V or 3.3V.

    In lead acid you've 6 cells in series to achieve the 12V nominal voltage and just 4 cells with LiFePO4 to achieve a 12.8V to 13.2V nominal voltage which is compatible with an AGM charging system.

    They both need higher voltages to get charged.

    https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/serial_and_parallel_battery_configurations
    https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/confusion_with_voltages


    To make it more clear: A builtin BMS into those batteries does two things:

    1. It balances the charging to the cells, so they can be equally charged (but it seems that it may occur naturally without a BMS. It's described by _cy_).
    2. It protects the cells from over discharging, i.e. from parasitic drain when the engine is turned off.

    It will never disconnect the battery when the engine is turned on. There is no overcharging protection. You would need a huge BMS with huge heat shields to dissipate the heat.

    Also note that when a battery is fully charged will accept only a limited current (unless you increase the voltage) so you can't avoid the pressure of the R/R. Thankfully all modern R/Rs don't use diodes or SCRs but MOSFETs that are much more durable.
  4. gefr

    gefr Life is a trip

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    Well, modern R/Rs are series as SH775 so they get more durable by avoiding burning unused electric power on themselves.
  5. Ste7ios

    Ste7ios Been here awhile

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    The majority of motorcycle R/Rs are still using a shunt design, not a series.

    I only have some clues why they prefer that design. Cost is surely a factor but not the only one. If I remember correctly the shunt design is better, more accurate, in high current requirements...
  6. gefr

    gefr Life is a trip

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    So maybe the accuracy is more important as lithium batteries start to get installed as first battery on new bikes?
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  7. Ste7ios

    Ste7ios Been here awhile

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    There’s nothing special about it. You just need a healthy charging system...
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  8. Drop_Center

    Drop_Center Long timer

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    I'm sorry to ask this again but I'm leaving for a trip tomorrow and my old battery just failed the load test. When running heated gear, is there a better choice? Lithium or Lead-acid?
  9. Ste7ios

    Ste7ios Been here awhile

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    Just get a known brand battery according to the specs in your owner’s manual and the maintain it properly...
  10. keepshoveling

    keepshoveling DNF

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    No. This is 100% not about the battery because you should not be relying on your battery to run the heated gear but rather the excess electricity your bike is producing. If the bike doens’t have enough juice to run heated gear then both lead acid and LiFePO will get drawn down and die. LiFePO charges a lot faster but unless you have earthx or antigravity, your battery will be dead-dead when you drain it all the way whereas maybe you can recover a lead acid battery. Given you’re leaving tomorrow I’d get a lead acid battery and then order an earthx (because their warranty is a full two year warranty vs. antigravity’s standard pro-rated warranty and also they’re made in the USA which I am a sucker and still like) for when you get back. But you almost certainly don’t need one. I just like buying shiny things.
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  11. TNWillie

    TNWillie Been here awhile

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    Ok dudes, arriving late to the party here and not into reading through 137 pages to find the answer to my question. I need a battery for my '72 Yam DS7, overall dimensions are very small. Can I use a small 12V battery that are used in commercial Exit sign light assemblies?
  12. ballisticexchris

    ballisticexchris Long timer

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    It's too bad that most of the posts on this thread are either just dry and boring "cut and pasted" engineering talk, or plain and simple BS with pictures of swollen made in china batteries going into thermal overload.

    I'm already feeling molested by all these lame posts that are cut and pasted from various battery propaganda websites. I'm willing to bet there are only a very few guys here who actually have an understanding as to what they are posting.

    Here is one of them who has a clue to common sense:
    For me I have decided on replacing my Yuasa YTZ12 with the EarthX ETX36C when the time comes. Only because my Beta has the original OEM EarthX that came with my bike from the factory in 2012. I want reliability and starting power. Either AGM Yuasa YTZ14 or EarthX 36C LifePO4 make good replacement batteries for my needs. My bike is a 2017 Super Tenere.


  13. SoilSampleDave

    SoilSampleDave Dr. Zaius was right!

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    I just use whatever I can steal after popping the seat off an unsuspecting donor bike. It feels like Christmas and I don’t have to ask anyone on here if it will work. :wave
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  14. Ste7ios

    Ste7ios Been here awhile

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    With technology and physics it’s not about common sense but more about knowledge, spending a lot of time in studying spec data sheets, manuals etc, and of course doing your own measurements, calculations etc.

    https://batteryuniversity.com/ is a great source of knowledge but it may get confusing in some articles...

    The “stay to the specs” is just an easy and safe way to do quickly your job without burning your brain and spend money in wrong choices! :)

    A thermal runway is very very rare to happen but not impossible with a faulty charging system or bad quality cells.
  15. kickstandsup

    kickstandsup Long timer Supporter

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    18 month update on an EarthX 24C in my 2012 Bonneville...zero issues, spins and starts much faster than the 2 Yuasas in there previously, the last of them only 18 months old and always on a tender before it died. Heat kills here in the desert and, so far, the EarthX works a treat. I've had several car and bike batteries die suddenly, the EarthX is my "test case" for the heat. Bike gets ridden about 2x/month for 100-200 miles each time.

    BTW...105 degrees F as I type this...
  16. ballisticexchris

    ballisticexchris Long timer

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    I have the same experience with my EarthX in my Beta. At one point the rubber battery hold down broke and the damn thing was bouncing around in the box for I don't now how long. It was in Dumont Dunes/Death Valley during a 2 day ride. Toward the end it was getting hard to start. I pulled the seat and simply zip tied the battery in to secure it and tightened down the terminals. It's been working ever since. I'm sold on the EarthX brand.
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  17. Ste7ios

    Ste7ios Been here awhile

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    It’s a pity that we don’t have them in E.U... They’re great batteries.
  18. RonKZ650

    RonKZ650 Been here awhile

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    I think goldwings are easy on batteries, but I'm 11yrs old on the original Yuasa AGM. Guys said I was wrong for trusting this battery this long 6 or 7yrs back. Still works every time.
  19. Ste7ios

    Ste7ios Been here awhile

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    Time has almost nothing to do with longevity. The same battery may last 1 year to 10 years. Longevity depends on usage, maintenance, and environmental temperature.

    You’ve to measure it to estimate its status. Surely it’s rare for a motorcycle battery to last so much, the average is about 5 years. Get ready for a new battery...
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  20. AlpineRAM

    AlpineRAM PartsChaser

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    Just replaced the Exide battery in my wife's R80ST. The battery was installed in July 2002.
    So I do not complain about the longevity, but what amazed me was the lack of indication by the bike that the battery would go out.
    Every day go to bike, turn key, press button- runs. One day just rattling.
    Only with the new battery we saw how much faster it would turn over compared to the old one.
    (And I got a locally made Banner battery, just like for a lot of other vehicles that I service- oldest Banner till in service in those vehicles I installed 1993 in a tractor. Still works fine)
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