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motorcycle salesmen—is it just ME??

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by sshbsn, Aug 1, 2019.

  1. liberpolly

    liberpolly Lazy rider

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    We know that it's couple of $1000 below MSRP, which is a starting negotiation point in a typical dealership. We know that invoice price is what the dealer is paying to the manufacturer, minus incentives, which we also more or less know at any given point. In short, in the modern age of internet, we know how much money the dealer is making on my sale, plus minus a few dollars, literally. No FUD can disguise these well-established facts.
  2. ddavidv

    ddavidv The reason we can't have nice things

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    I dismissed Teslas as a status symbol for geeks but after having dealt with an insurance claim on one and seeing what they are really like...I think they are the future. I am as skeptical as the next guy when it comes to a startup car company like them but the finish was high, features unique and useful and performance impressive.
    liberpolly likes this.
  3. CaseyJones

    CaseyJones Ridin' that train

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    Yeah, a dealer network is no assurance of fair treatment of a customer. It is, however, a necessary prereq...as thousands of China scoot buyers who got their machines from The Scooter Store online, can testify. No dealer network, no place to go for parts, trained service (or service with the books and ability/interest to learn).

    Yes, I've had bad experiences with powersports dealers. Suzuki is running their dealer network into the sewer - they've P.O'd a lot of good dealers and are accepting the losers. Three recalls on my WeeStrom and the last was done wrong with the stator coming apart in the field.

    Bottom line is, you don't need a dealer and service infrastructure...until you do.
  4. CaseyJones

    CaseyJones Ridin' that train

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    This doesn't address Tesla's current problem of a dearth of service for broken/wrecked cars. That's becoming an issue. Customers report multi-month waits with inoperative or un-driveable cars.

    It's not hard to have growth from zero units when you're the marketplace pioneer. Let's see how they stack up against (newer, more advanced) competition.
  5. liberpolly

    liberpolly Lazy rider

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    Which is a good thing - stupid, fashion-conscious people, through the economy of scale, are subsidizing a good product for smart people. Call it "tax on stupidity" if you wish.

    But the OP asked how well dealership-less sales work for Tesla, and I've shown - very well indeed.
  6. liberpolly

    liberpolly Lazy rider

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    Tesla still has the network, it's just the network is occupied with servicing, instead of shaking down customers. Salesmen out, repairmen in. What's not to like?
  7. CaseyJones

    CaseyJones Ridin' that train

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    Tesla has problems with satisfying warranty claims.

    But you have to get past the fanboi sites to get into it. And that Tesla is neither honest about it nor addressing it, doesn't speak of a corporation with ethics.

    But let's leave that go; it's off-topic.
  8. liberpolly

    liberpolly Lazy rider

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    Did you miss the rest of my post? Here it is again:

    [​IMG]
  9. Vistavette

    Vistavette Been here awhile

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    I know that the dealer tells us that's the price they pay, but I know from my time in the car business that there is a ton of money that comes back to them after the sale. The cost to own and operate a brick and mortar dealership is huge, and it's not done at $100 per unit.

    None if this really matters I guess, but to believe that these places exist without much larger profits because "the internet says so" is a bit naive. It's also not very realistic to think that getting rid of sales people will lower the price. I'm not advocating to keep the status quo, but the seller will spend that money elsewhere and keep any extra, not pass it on to you.

    I've watched this go on in the musical instrument business. I used to be able to go into my local stores, negotiate a new drum set or guitar and feel good about my purchase. They're all closed now as big national chains have taken over, both locally and over the net.
    The factories now have a minimum advertised price, that every store uses, so they're all the same price and not at all interested in any type of deal. The only people helped with this method are the stores. The consumer just pays more.

    Factory owned stores will not be less expensive, but shopping/buying should be easier.
  10. CaseyJones

    CaseyJones Ridin' that train

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    One of the things that make you go "Hmmm" about Tesla, right now, is that their published sales/delivery figures don't match registration figures.

    Tesla, in the person of Musk, has a reputation of playing fast-and-loose with figures. How'd that "Going private at the price of $419 a share" play out? Musk is going to spend a bit of time in court for that one...several shareholders are suing.

    Like I said, it's all off-topic. The truth will out, no matter how much smoke some Tesla CEOs blow...
  11. CaseyJones

    CaseyJones Ridin' that train

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    While continuing the direct-versus-dealer models...we can look at the Chinese Scooter fiasco, now mostly dead (the few Chinese brands still around, now have dealers) versus auto history.

    The story of Nissan's arrival in the United States. The Nissan point-man, one Japanese officer who went by "Mr K" (I'd have to look up his name) came to California, got the legality of auto importation understood, and then watched how American cars were sold. By dealers. Whom owners/buyers depended on as a liaison between company and customer.

    Whom took the risk when ordering cars. Who smoothed out sales...dealers would have inventory when a model proved overly popular, and could be pressured to buy minimums when sales hit a temporary halt. They were warehousers, marketers, the representatives in the field.

    Mr. K knew he had to have dealers. He sought young men who liked his models but would have been rejected by the Big Three and VW. He made it easy for them to open, and allowed them to make a lot of commission on sales.

    They came. They were enthusiastic. They smoothed over the problems of the early Datsuns, and reported those problems to Mr. K and the factory. The Nissan management responded with improved cars.

    Nissan, in the 1960s, was a sales leader. The cars were Americanized - remember the 240Z and the Lil' Hustler truck? Beautiful, well-designed models. Their only shortcoming was rust resistance.

    Nissan in Japan, though, resented the money the American dealers were making. Mr. K was forcibly retired; and Nissan, cutting its profit margin for dealers, went through a decrease in sales and decline in product acceptance. That was when Toyota, which did NOT initially embrace the American dealer business-model...only after Nissan got anal-retentive, did Toyota move to the lead in its slow, ponderous way.
  12. liberpolly

    liberpolly Lazy rider

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    It is all well known - cannot keep a secret in the internet age - I accounted for it in "minus incentives". https://www.cars.com/articles/understanding-factory-to-dealer-incentives-1420681046341/

    This is just silly.

    The cars, unlike musical instruments, are more or less the same, and the difference in a few hundred dollars between Toyota and Ford can sway overall sales figures enough to apply serious pressure on the prices. It is not entirely so for motorcycles, but still, if manufacturers could set any price they want, the motorcycles would cost much more. Boutique manufacturers like Ducati can just name the price and be limited only by their addressable market, but most of the market is fiercely competitive on price, and manufacturers are forced to set the price at cost plus some reasonable profit margin. What's "reasonable profit margin" is determined by how much risk is there in the industry. That's all there is to it, no conspiracies, no psychology, no mystery.
  13. Vistavette

    Vistavette Been here awhile

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    There is a lot more money than "incentives". Again, I did this for a living. Thinking you know everything because the "internet says so"...ugh, never mind
    B02S4 likes this.
  14. liberpolly

    liberpolly Lazy rider

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    Did you RTFA I linked?
  15. Vistavette

    Vistavette Been here awhile

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    Yes, I did. And again "Trunk Money" as it was referred to in the industry is extra incentives to sell slow moving vehicles. That's all the article references, plus hold back. There is A LOT MORE
  16. liberpolly

    liberpolly Lazy rider

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    No there isn't.
  17. Vistavette

    Vistavette Been here awhile

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    Oh, okay. I only spent 12 years in the business.
  18. liberpolly

    liberpolly Lazy rider

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    And you like to pretend you know some secrets that weren't spilled on internet, and that car dealerships are better at secrecy than NSA, CIA and FBI combined.
  19. Tall Man

    Tall Man Govern yourself accordingly.

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    Coincidentally, a family member purchased a new vehicle recently. Sticker was $29,845.00. The dealer's offer was $27,274.00, or 8.6% less. The make and model are reasonably popular, and the Google search results for "dealer invoice" articles weren't as insightful as we had hoped, so the offer was accepted.

    The negotiation occurred via the exchange of a few brief text messages, with a salesman familiar to (and recommended by) the family. The first in-person contact occurred in the form of a handshake at the dealership, 5 minutes before the paperwork sit-down. Done and done.

    The aforementioned salesman is an old fellow working amongst a sea of young go-getters, to put it politely. His relaxed style contrasts sharply with the, um, "momentum" of his colleagues. I have to say I'd also want to deal with him.
  20. windmill

    windmill Long timer

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    I see them everywhere, I see them every day, there's at least 2 in my neighborhood.
    liberpolly likes this.