Mountain Goat Bike Recommendations

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Johnny Bouncewell, Feb 7, 2019.

  1. JETalmage

    JETalmage Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2014
    Oddometer:
    741
    I know what a natural terrain hill is and I know what hill climbing is, thankyouverymuch. That's why I reacted to your absurd implication that a Trials bike can't climb hills as well as some ordinary budget-built, overweight, underpowered trail bike, because it has a "short swingarm."

    For the same reason some of them run nitro fuel and 750 cc engines: Because they are machines radically altered for one, single, very specific spectator event: Blasting straight up a very long hill usually covered by a foot of loose dirt chewed up by countless paddle tires, and doing so in the least elapsed time.

    Go watch the original On Any Sunday in which Malcolm Smith topped the Widowmaker hillclimb on a stock Husky.

    Invoking hillclimb bike design in the context of this thread is just complete nonsense. By your "long swingarm" over-simplification and misapplication, Johnny Bouncewell should favor a drag racing bike over a trail bike for his 1-10 MPH geology excursions, because they also have the "advantage" of absurdly long swingarms.

    So? Trials bikes commonly surmount 8' rock walls that are in fact vertical (if not actually undecut), despite their "short swingarms," and that has no realistic application to this thread's use case, either.

    Bring your exaggerated-swingarm bike to Middle GA and I'll take you to some typical hills and watch you try to dodge the trees while I casually ride figure-eights all over, back and forth, and up and down the same hillside. And I'm just an ordinary middle-of-the-pack 65 year old rider.

    JET
  2. PlowHand

    PlowHand Ancient, ugly and happy :-) Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2015
    Oddometer:
    1,431
    Location:
    North-Central-Indiana
    Impressive riding right there bro. I think you’re ready for some GNCC action! :thumb
    Chillis and Yinzer Moto like this.
  3. roamer

    roamer Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2003
    Oddometer:
    327
    Location:
    Gold Canyon, Arizona
    Ha! Yup that's me. I knew that looked familiar. I'm thinking east side of North Butte?
  4. lamotovita

    lamotovita DAMN SNOWBIRD!

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,915
    Location:
    WA/AZ, USA
    Pretty close, when the weather improves lets go ride (send me a PM), I've got some trails that I built that I want to show to somebody before I age out and they go back to nature.
  5. JETalmage

    JETalmage Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2014
    Oddometer:
    741
    Your thread title and use-case clearly describes needing the agility of a Trials bike.
    Yet here you are throwing out the most predictable, cliche offhanded dismissal...:

    First, let's talk realistically about range. (To avoid repetition, never mind that several have already shown or stated that extra fuel or even a sit-while-riding seat is nothing new.)

    What you call "comically small fuel tanks" occurs on the latest generations of Moderns, as the quest for light weight in the cutting-edge Trials world is now measured in half-ounces, not pounds. But the Modern versus Vintage distinction in Trials context started around the early-to-mid 80s; "Modern" is not a reference to just very recent year models. Moderns span almost four decades of gradual development. Earlier Moderns do have somewhat larger tanks than current new models.

    My 2016 Honda Montesa Cota (158 lb), for example, has a smaller tank than the 2000 Gas Gas TXT 321 I recently sold. Yet with either of those bikes, I would still typically ride all day with one re-fuel about mid-day, and even then, not because I had to.

    How? Because when riding a Trials bike, one tends to frequently stop and spend some times carefully examining the terrain. Sound familiar?

    The Super Sherpa I once owned (one of the bikes you mention, and having a stock fuel capacity similar to the other conventional trail bikes you are considering) ran out of gas at right around 100 miles--riding in 6th gear on rural secondary highways at 55 MPH. So guess what? "Plodding along at 1-10 MPH" means first gear in any of the consumer-ish play bikes you've listed. They likely won't do 100 miles on a single tank in first gear at 10MPH, either.

    Where do you get such nonsense? In my 50 years of riding, I've owned what must be pushing some 60 or so bikes of most types. (I'm due to do another accurate re-count.) But the single type of bike I have always owned since 1973 is a Trials bike.

    Nonetheless, my summary involvement in club level organized Trials events throughout that span is a matter of comparing months to decades. Since '73, Trials bikes have been my default and much preferred trail bikes. And I assure you, they have invariably been the lowest maintenance dirt bikes I have ever owned, despite their having taken beatings worse than any to which I've ever subjected conventional trail bikes.

    At least you've admitted in post 16, "...I haven't owned any of these bikes." It shows:

    How original. Did you make that up?

    Do you and the other countless naysayers (mostly in the US) honestly think the goal driving Trials bike design is to make riding lower-back painful?

    Trials bikes are built the way they are because it works for traversing natural rough terrain. They are designed for standing on the pegs. "Designed for" means it doesn't hurt; it's as designed-in natural and relaxed and proper to stand on a Trials bike as it is on a Segway.

    Part of the nimbleness advantages of a Trials bike stem from its pegs being mounted much farther rearward than those on ordinary dirt bikes. That's a key factor in facilitating the body English necessary to successfully negotiating obstacles of all types in the real world where "just gas it" just doesn't cut it, because the next obstacle usually immediately follows the current one. It's one of the reasons why standing on a Trials bike is natural. And rearward mounted pegs is not particularly conducive to sitting, especially on a low seat.

    Exhausting? Quite the contrary...

    That right there is the root of the ad nauseam, knee-jerk, just-won't-listen dismissive fallacy about trail riding a Trials bike.

    PLODDING THROUGH
    is not your goal. PLODDING TROUGH rough terrain with a clumsy bulky 300 lb under-powered lump--that's exhausting.

    Trials bike are designed the way they are so you don't have to exhaustingly PLOD THROUGH.

    The type of riding you've specified involves necessarily riding beyond the edges of the tire-worn trails. Those edges are the dividing lines between your expending too much energy just to get the bike through instead of the bike's design serving to get you through--which should be the whole point.

    Let's get real. What gear must you carry on these hundred-mile seat-time rides? A Leatherman multi-tool and a cell phone? A gardening spade? Shovels, rakes, and implements of destruction? An earth core-sampling machine?...?

    Seriously; you're going to be on a bike in isolated areas, alone, 50 miles away from the nearest 45MPH gravel road, riding at 1-10 MPH? How much water and food are you carrying in your pocket?

    10 MPH (your stated maximum) for a 100 mile round trip ride; that's 10 hours. Even with your sections of 45 MPH gravel roads, that doesn't leave much time for "getting off the bike, walking around, and looking at rocks."

    "Plodding along at 1-10 MPH" means first gear in any of the other bike types you've listed (other than possibly Trials-inspired hybrids, which are rather hard to find nowadays).

    Do each of those"45 MPH gravel roads" begin and end at 100 mile stretches of pristine un-trodden wilderness? If so, how did they get there? Dropped from the sky by aliens?

    Honestly, with just a little reading between the lines, it sounds to me like I would:
    1. Buy back the excellent condition 2000 Gas Gas TXT 321 I just sold for $2500.
    2. Toss its 175 lbs onto the hitch rack of my 2000 base-model Jeep Wrangler.
    3. Toss a case of water bottles and whatever geological examination tools I need onto the back seat along with a laptop.
    4. Drive to whichever 45MPH gravel road is nearest to today's examination site.
    5. Comfortably, casually, and safely explore that site with few limitations all day on the 321, paying attention to my work without wearing myself out trying plod through it on a 300 lb metal mule with mud tires.
    6. Ride back to the Jeep, leaving practically zero detectable footprint on the terrain.
    7. Go home. Eat. Sleep. Repeat.
    A Trials bike is just what you need; a beyond the trails trail bike.

    PS: Drum brakes? Really? Now already a score into the 21st century?

    JET
  6. Yinzer Moto

    Yinzer Moto aka: trailer Rails Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Oddometer:
    27,107
    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA

    The original post you were quoting me from was where I said a regular dirt bike would climb better than a trials bike because it has a longer swingarm. Just to be clear, you are trying to argue the opposite of that. You are saying that a bike with a shorter swingarm will climb better.
    Chillis, 2WheelNeal, Fallacy and 2 others like this.
  7. alvincullumyork

    alvincullumyork Ol Two Flags Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2012
    Oddometer:
    16,533
    Location:
    Richland WA
    :gerg
  8. NJ-Brett

    NJ-Brett Brett

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Oddometer:
    9,285
    Location:
    Southern New Jersey
    I figure the guy would want to carry stuff, like tools, fuel bottles, water, samples, and some other stuff needed for the job in the wilderness.
    I also figure he might want a nice seat to sit on and a rack/tail bag on the back for the supplies.
    Since riding solo in remote rough area's, I would want the bike to be a bit lower (and lower center of gravity) and to be well under 300 pounds.

    I always thought trials bikes were for short time closed course setups with NO seat needed.
    I do not think I would want to stand on the pegs for 4 hours of riding, but I am old and lazy...
    I sit a lot on the TW and only stand on the real rough stuff.
    I do the trails up to about 60 mph on the smooth stuff, down to walking pace or slower through deep water/ice/mud.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
  9. Bucho

    Bucho DAMNrider

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2006
    Oddometer:
    3,911
    Location:
    Maryland
    I'm generally in agreement w/ your post about trials bikes. But FYI, in the movie Malcolm Smith didn't top Widowmaker on his stock Husky. (Though I believe he did do the best in the stock bike class)
  10. JETalmage

    JETalmage Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2014
    Oddometer:
    741
    Thanks for the correction. Nonetheless, my point stands.

    The silly "logic" I'm calling out, of course, is akin to this:

    Trials bikes have lower bars than many dualsport and dual-purpose bikes.
    Sport bikes have even lower bars than Trials bikes.
    Sport bikes would be better at Observed Trials than those dualsport and dual-purpose bikes.

    JET
  11. Ned1

    Ned1 Long timer

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Oddometer:
    1,121
    Location:
    BC native, Redmond WA resident
    Rage much? holy feck...

    I'd look for an Alp, Pampera, TY350 or some sort of a long ride-ified trials donkey if I were out lurking for rocks in steep ground and cover a bit of territory too.

    Did a fair bit of that kinda riding over the years... large high elevation traverses on seatless bikes with gas in the backpack and a few seasonal stashes sprinkled over the landscape. Some of the best, could only imagine doing it for work :-)
    SloSolo2 likes this.
  12. simbaboy

    simbaboy Lansing MBS Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2012
    Oddometer:
    5,004
    Location:
    Lansing, MI
    Mountain Goat?
    TW200

    [​IMG]
    Chillis likes this.
  13. rocksterman

    rocksterman adventure duffer

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2006
    Oddometer:
    290
    Suzuki RV200 VanVan is everything the TW200 is plus fuel injected and oil cooled engine. IMG_20180412_142915588-EFFECTS.jpg
    simbaboy and Chillis like this.
  14. JensEskildsen

    JensEskildsen Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Oddometer:
    2,048
    Location:
    Denmark
    I think the OP left a long time ago.... Wonder what he got? :-)
    Magus and PlowHand like this.
  15. YZEtc

    YZEtc Feel lucky?

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Oddometer:
    351
    Location:
    Connecticut
    Yes, I'd like to know his thoughts on this.
    Hopefully, it won't be the same ol' mystery case of a question being asked but no conclusion presented.
    PlowHand likes this.
  16. NJ-Brett

    NJ-Brett Brett

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Oddometer:
    9,285
    Location:
    Southern New Jersey
    Makes me want to try a trials bike!
    Its flat, sand and mud around here so maybe not a common bike.
    And I have never been into slow much in the past.

    After having an old XT200, I know a bike around 200 pounds is a lot of fun and easy off road.

    The vanvan is a flop for off road.
    Yinzer Moto likes this.
  17. Yinzer Moto

    Yinzer Moto aka: trailer Rails Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Oddometer:
    27,107
    Location:
    Pittsburgh PA

    I love trials, I might log the most time on my trials bike out of all of my bikes. There is no better way to come home from work and spend an hour going 1/2mph around the driveway and yard and get a workout. There is a club called Mid Atlantic Vintage Trials (modern bikes are welcome) that has a few competitions in your area. Stop by and check one out. To compete, you only need to be able to start a bike, no real skill is required to have fun. The TW can be competitive on the easiest course, some clubs may not allow knobbies though. It is best to call them before.
  18. lamotovita

    lamotovita DAMN SNOWBIRD!

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,915
    Location:
    WA/AZ, USA
    He posted a while ago that he had decided on a TW200, which doesn't really match his is original description.
  19. NJ-Brett

    NJ-Brett Brett

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Oddometer:
    9,285
    Location:
    Southern New Jersey
    Original requirements:
    ........................................................................................................................................................
    A few basic requirements:
    100 mile round trip range
    Damn good hill climbing and knarly terrain ability
    Cheap (under 3k or so)
    Spark arrestor
    Light--under 200 wet would be AWESOME but probably not realistic short of a modern trials machine
    Low seat height to reduce chances of injury when I inevitably bail from a bad decision
    Nothing that scares my safety officer (no CRRRRRF450XXX type rigs)
    .......................................................................................................................................................
    The TW fits except the under 200 pounds.
    A lot of the weight of the TW is in the wheels and tires though, so its low.
  20. lamotovita

    lamotovita DAMN SNOWBIRD!

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,915
    Location:
    WA/AZ, USA
    The word "light" certainly doesn't match a TW200 and while in most conditions the 100 mile range won't be a problem I'd guess that in severe conditions it's small fuel capacity might crowd that figure.