My concern re: F650gs Twin

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by Osm3um, Dec 8, 2008.

  1. WoodWorks

    WoodWorks House Ape

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    Er, if you consider the Airheads and Oilheads "virtually unchanged" :huh in their design, Griz, then you might as well say that the boxer engine is unchanged since the R32, which was introduced in 1923. And BMW added FI to the boxers in 1993, not 1999, with the introduction of the R1100RS. :deal

    Just sayin'.

    David
    #41
  2. JDLuke

    JDLuke Ravening for delight

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    I still think it was a silly naming decision. Not so much for having another bike take over the F650GS name, but in bringing back the older thumper under a different name.
    #42
  3. The Griz

    The Griz Long timer Supporter

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    I'm talking about the GS line only. And in the GS line, the R1100GS was fuel injected in 1994. My bad, sorry. And yes, cooling method aside, a flat-twin is a flat-twin. Virtually unchanged. The pistons lay flat and oppose each other right?

    And outside of the GS line, the fact that BMW has had the boxer since 1923 and are still using it not only solidifies my point even further, but also makes BMW win. Case closed.
    #43
  4. raider

    raider Big red dog

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    To answer part of the original question, in many markets the 650 twin is sold in, there is a leglislative requirement for spare parts to be available for at least 10 years following the last one rolling off the production line. When Mitsubishi Australia wound up manufacturing locally, their suppliers went into overdrive building up a stockpile of parts to meet this requirement - demonstrating the level of adherence to the rule.

    Thus you can be assured 650 twin parts will be available until at least 2019, even if you have to order them from Australia or Europe (via your local dealer).

    As for confusion to the name, no one confuses the original Funduro with the later F650, despite having a different engine and frame; people cope with a CBR1000 being one of eleven or more different frame/engine combos, not counting the -1000F; even moronic cage drivers understand that parts for a '97 Taurus won't fit their '07 model - are BMW owners "special", or are people getting bent out of shape merely for the sake of argument?
    #44
  5. elbowtko

    elbowtko Adventurer

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    if the g's are more for the offroad are they going to make a g650gs dakar version as well? to compete with say bike like the tenere
    #45
  6. Possu

    Possu de-nOObed!

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    I think you've nailed it with that comment. :thumb :D
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  7. Pecha72

    Pecha72 Long timer

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    It is one of the few models that has changed its design totally, including its engine displacement, yet kept the exact same name as the older model, so it doesnt even correspond to its true engine size anymore. Can someone btw mention even one other model, that has had the same treatment?

    Getting the right parts for these wont be a BIG problem, I was just saying that this does leave some room for confusion, that there need not be, and someone refuses to believe it. Thats fine with me, because anyway only time will tell, if it is so, or not. And Im not a BMW-employee, or owner, so what do I care.

    And all in all, its not something that´s likely to bother the customer so much, because it is the dealers and importers, who move stuff back and forth, if there are order mistakes. That has some negative effect on costs, though.

    I agree, the name itself isnt so important, as you might think by reading this thread!! But I still believe that they would´ve done themselves a favour, by giving it a totally new one. It most certainly is a totally new bike.
    #47
  8. dtysdalx2

    dtysdalx2 Just glad to be here.

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    So what is the engine differences between the 800 and 650? Bigger cam on the 800? Differing fuel maps? Different heads? :scratch
    #48
  9. earthroamer

    earthroamer Stuck in Pindadesh

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    Valve overlap.
    #49
  10. dtysdalx2

    dtysdalx2 Just glad to be here.

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    So you could just possibly change cams and WA-LA, an 800?
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  11. Possu

    Possu de-nOObed!

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    Would different cam profiles account for these figures?

    F800GS:
    Power: 85hp @ 7,500rpm
    Torque: 83nm @ 5,750rpm

    F650GS:
    Power: 71hp @ 7,000rpm
    Torque: 75nm @ 4,500rpm

    Both the cams & the throttle bodies have diifferent part #'s for each bike, I think the 650 throttle bodies are smaller to boost midrange at the expense of top end power?
    #51
  12. huckleberry

    huckleberry BACK ROAD BOMBER

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    i have info from bmw that says the valve lift is .01 less on the 650 than on the 800. if you were to combine this with slightly smaller throtle bodies and slightly different mapping, it would seem to me that that would account for the difference in peak hp. I don't understand why everyone makes such a big fuss thou--actually the 650 makes more power where you normally ride it--below 5 grand
    #52
  13. John Ashman

    John Ashman Adventurer Wannabe

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    Exactly. I almost never rev a bike over 5K. And often stay below 4K. So the 650's 'detuned' engine attracts me. It's not how much power you make, it's how low you make it that counts (unless you're actually racing).

    As an example, I remember pulling up next to a nice new Yamaha R6 with a young kid on it, while I was on my nearly 20 year old Honda Hawk (47HP). And I thought "I'm not even looking over at the guy, I don't want to give him any ideas about racing". So when I pulled out, I just kept it under 5K and pulled out in my normal fashion til I get to about 50mph. And the whole time I heard this massive loud whine with tons of obvious shifting going on and I thought "holy cow, this guy is going to blow by me at 100mph." And nothing happened, so I finally looked over and he was just keeping up with me. I couldn't even hear my bike over his and he could barely keep up with me (at least without sounding like he wanted to race) and I wasn't even trying. I subsequently rode an R6 and thought it was a POS with a peaky power band and quirky handling.
    #53
  14. huckleberry

    huckleberry BACK ROAD BOMBER

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    #54
  15. The Griz

    The Griz Long timer Supporter

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    Actually, you will see in the chart that the F800GS's power curve is a lot more smooth than the 650. Yes, with the 650, you get a bit of a bump around 5,200 rpm's. But that bump is VERY short-lived, and many would argue (including most MX people) that a bumpy power or torque curve is not favorable.

    Also, all charts and such aside, the fact is that the gearing ratios are even more important, and are different between the two bikes. As standard the F800 is geared lower with a 16 front:42 rear sprocket combo against the 17 front :41 rear of the F650. I know they seem close. However, a 1 tooth jump in the front is the equivalent to a 4-5 tooth jump in the back. The gearing ratio of the F800 provides a lot more torque down low than the F650.

    And again, when people (including BMW), test the power output of these bikes, they are only testing the engine output power. Not the actual rear-wheel at the ground output power, which is more realistic to the user. Due to the gearing ratio, smoother power band, and better suspension, you will find that the F800 makes for more 'usable' and 'controllable' power at the rear wheel and a better ride.

    When riding off-road it's all about controlling your low end power. With the F800's smoother low end power band, gearing ratio, and better suspension, that is more possible.

    When riding on the highway it's all about upper power availability for ease of cruising and passing and such. You'll see that the F800 has power in reserves above 6,000 rpm's making this possible.

    http://www.ukgser.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=93471&stc=1&d=1212702271

    Mostly all of this complaining is due to the fact that the people that bought a new 650GS and are jealous of us with 800's.:smile6 Deal with it! The F800GS is a better all around bike!
    #55
  16. dholaday

    dholaday Been here awhile Supporter

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    Hmmm . . . Looking at the graphs [thanks for the link] it appears that the 650 has more Torque and HP than the 800 up to about 3300 rpm, then again around 5k. Guess which is 'better' depends on where and how riding.
    #56
  17. huckleberry

    huckleberry BACK ROAD BOMBER

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    being an adult i'll just salute you for your last comment as you sit there turning green!!!!!
    #57
  18. The Griz

    The Griz Long timer Supporter

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    +1

    Very true. At the end of the day, it all comes down to rider skill and conditions.
    #58
  19. The Griz

    The Griz Long timer Supporter

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    ..ok...whatever that means....I'll take it as a compliment! :beer
    #59
  20. dtysdalx2

    dtysdalx2 Just glad to be here.

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    I'm just sayin' if I find a F650 for dirt cheap, I'm going to buy it up. And if I need more HP, it should be fairly easy to get F800 numbers from the engine.

    Cheap bastards unite! :gdog
    #60