need help - intermittent starting issues KTM Freeride 350 2012

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by bungle, Apr 23, 2018.

  1. bungle

    bungle Adventurer

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    Well mine looks different. That looks similar to the fuel pipe one. The injector one is black plastic, half the length and ribbed. Got it out from within the injector eventually. It didn’t look particularly dirty. Cleaned it with carb cleaner along with the injector with it wired open and put it back. No change. Won’t start. I began to think that perhaps the fuel pressure regulator was the problem so I borrowed a tank from a friend’s 500. Plugged that in and it wouldn’t start either - see video -
    #21
  2. magwych

    magwych Been here awhile

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    Holy thread resurrections!

    Bungle, did you ever get it sorted? My wifes 350 has been the same since she bought it.
    If it works we go out. If it doesn't it goes back into the workshop for a while.
    New fuek pump, new regulator, new fuel filter, injector cleaned and new filter basket. It still behaves exactky like yours.
    #22
  3. bungle

    bungle Adventurer

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    No. I’ve not had it running since. Not for want of trying. I’ve now spent 8 full days in the garage trying to figure it out. Sadly I’m none the wiser. So far I’ve tried:

    - checked earthing
    - checked starter cable conductance
    - checked and calibrated TPS to within tolerance
    - alternative tank with fuel pump from a friends 500 exc
    - changed the in tank fuel pump filter
    - changed the external fuel feed pipe filter
    - sprayed fuel in the intake and confirmed it runs, idles ok after, won’t restart reliably after
    - sent injector to MrInjector to be cleaned and tested. Came back within tolerance.
    - swapped out fuel lines to test for air leak
    - checked clearances within tolerances
    - changed piston and rings, piston worn but not bad
    - checked valves for leaks, with head off and inverted it will hold petrol for 2-3hrs with little leakage
    - leak down test, tested ok

    The only thing I can think of now is the ECU is malfunctioning on startup. At £300+ I’m in no hurry to swap that one.

    ALSO considering trying to find a reputable KTM dealership to get a readout of the diagnostics (sensor values), clear, then rerun diagnostics and compare.

    Genuinely stuck here. It’s nicknamed the “Freeloader” by my friends. Seriously putting me off KTMs for life despite having a 690 in the same garage
    #23
  4. magwych

    magwych Been here awhile

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    Thanks bungle, that is exactly where I am at with the annual Freeride investigations and attempts to make it run, reliably. It has had its moments, it ran for a whole half a day last year, twice!
    Next check is the regulator/rectifier and ignition pickup. Sadly, there is naff-all i formation about these, replacement is the only test. One tip I shall try though is to measure resistance on the pick up, then warm it with a hairdryer, to see if it changes when it gets hot.
    I would never own another KTM, my 690 took ages to sort too. That was a fuel pump and leaking MAP sensor o-ring. I loed the one size screw heads but poor quality parts used throughout; and dealers that have never heard of well discussed and documented issues.
    #24
  5. bungle

    bungle Adventurer

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    Thanks I’ll give that a try also. I’ve been lucky with my 2008 690 so far, but hey there is still time! Let me know how you get on
    #25
  6. bungle

    bungle Adventurer

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    I’ve not had any luck with dealers so far either. Outside of oil changes and clearances I don’t think they do much actual spannering
    #26
  7. magwych

    magwych Been here awhile

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    Well I had a major breakthrough with TuneECU...
    From the wiring diagram there is a ground wire from the main power relay to pin 5 of the diagnostic plug.
    Ground it, i.e. connect to pin 6, and the power relay cones on, powering up the ECU.
    That did not help starting but does rule out the regulator/rectifier. The reg/rec grounds that wire when it senses ac voltage from the stator.
    Next up, I tried a few different voltages on the TPS. Using a wide-band O2 sensor I could see that it affects the AFR at idle, during warm up. Once the engine gets above 80odd degrees C, the fuelling changes. No matter what TPS voltage, once warmed up the AFR was 15.9-16.1.
    If you have used TuneECU on a 690 you will be familiar with F and L maps. The Keihin ECU switches from F to L whenwarmedup, and switches back to F according to the F-L switch table.
    I decided to try and match the warm up and warmed up AFRs, by adjusting the TPS voltage. It is a slow process, the engine had to cool before each test. I now run at 601mV on the TPS with throttle closed.
    I had also noticed that the witness paint blob on the throttle cam stop screw was missing, previous owner/dealer has been fiddling about! The cable stop was preventing the butterfly from touching its own stop. I eased that off so they both now touch.
    I jury rigged up a Sumitomo HM plug to connect to the diagnostics port and a Lonelec OBD usb cable, connecting pins 5 and 6. Neither TuneECU nor KTM UST would connect. When I did the same to a Bluetooth OBD adaptor, TuneECU did connect
    That has allowed me to confirm the map installed and to monitor some parameters. It seems that the o2 sensor has been disabled in the ECU, there are no errors when it is disconnected, and in TuneECU the voltage is floating around 4.9V, no short term o2 sensor trims. I think the ECU may be playing with the trims, checking the impact on idle speed instead of usingthe o2 sensor.
    It does seem to start better, all I have really done is to lower the TPS voltage from 611mV to 601mV.
    I have also replaced the radiator fan switch with one from a BMW G450X. It switches the fan on at 90C, off at 85C.
    #27
  8. magwych

    magwych Been here awhile

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    Screenshot_2019-06-20-12-58-15.png Screenshot_2019-06-20-12-55-09.png Screenshot_2019-06-20-12-55-09.png
    #28
  9. bungle

    bungle Adventurer

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    Thanks. Not sure why but I missed this. Is yours starting more reliably now?
    #29
  10. magwych

    magwych Been here awhile

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    Not entirely. A trick of holding the throttle slightly open and letting it snap shut whilst cranking works though.
    #30
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  11. bungle

    bungle Adventurer

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    Where did you find the TPS settings? My workshop manual isn’t searchable and I can’t find the official values
    #31
  12. magwych

    magwych Been here awhile

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    I came across the values on internet searches. I don't recall if it was in a thread here, on ktmforum.co.uk or a German site. It got a bit confusing because there is a lot of cross-referencing from one site to another.

    There is also a lot of confusion regarding the mapping switch. Wiring diagrams show an optional mapping switch. There is a connector that seems to connect the mapping switch wires together when no physical switch is installed. However, on mine the connector is a plain superseal 2-way, so the wires are separated.
    #32
  13. west250

    west250 Long timer

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    Daughter's bike had same issues. Just heard back from the repair shop that they've localized the issue to a 'fuel injector, and fuel injector rail'. Apparently they swapped parts back and forth between a good running 350, and localized it to those 2 items. Will go in and pay the piper and let daughter run it through the paces and see what she comes up with.
    #33
  14. magwych

    magwych Been here awhile

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    West250, I do wish youluck with that.
    TBH, I read that as "they said they had fiddled about with stuff, and then it started. Last thing they replaced was injector and fuel line"
    It could have been a blocked injector, or filter screen. Injectors can stick if they have been stored dry for a long time. The Keihin injectors use 12 very small holes, other makes use less holes that are larger. The very small size requires very precise filtration to stop clogging.

    Run a small amount of injector cleaner in a tankful from time to time to reduce the chance of it happening again.

    Personally I think that there is something very wrong with the fuelling. Poor starting and high engine temperatures are the clue, I feel. Liquid cooling allows a far greater range of AFRs to be used than an air-cooled engine would permit.
    #34
  15. BaldKnob

    BaldKnob I Wanna Ride

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    This is exactly what my KTM was doing... turned out there was a crack in my spark plug boot and when cold, it refused to start unless I got a tow or bump start. Once warm, it would run (and start) but had an erratic idle and stalled frequently. 3 wraps of electric tape and I’ve had zero issues with the bike. Look closely at yours next time you have the tank off.
    #35
  16. west250

    west250 Long timer

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    Once she gets it back and puts the bike through the motions we'll see if the problem is fixed - but I'm optimistic. Should be a great bike once this issue is sorted out.
    #36
  17. magwych

    magwych Been here awhile

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    How goes it now?
    #37
  18. west250

    west250 Long timer

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    Bike starts much better. Cold start isn't an immediate start up, but once warm it lights up every time.

    Currently I have a new battery sitting on my workbench to install - not sure but when I brought it back from a test ride a couple of weeks ago the battery was flattened to the point where it wouldn't start. Mind you I was riding the bike in warm weather and the fan was pretty much on full time, and ran a few test starts out in the woods also. It may be that the charging system couldn't keep up, or that there's a connection somewhere that has some corrosion on it which is affecting the full charge going to the battery - either way, with a new bike (without a kick starter), I find it prudent to throw a fresh battery in in.

    Will most likely drop it in tomorrow, check a few connections and take it out for another test ride.

    Edit: Went for a little rip, then came back and tried to start the bike hot with just a 'click'. Tested the charging system and even with the fan on it's pushing slightly over 13, so beginning to think it's something to do with a warm starter. Will snoop further, but the starting issue (version 1) was fixed, now it's just another darned starting issue (version 2).
    #38