New and improved KTM690 WUNDERFEST

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by crankshaft, Sep 6, 2011.

  1. Shmikes_1

    Shmikes_1 Perpetual Novice

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    Cheers guys....Has fresh fuel... Little update...

    With the PCV connected the bike doesn't even catch with or without throttle. Tried with the supplied map, a map with zeroes all through 0% & 2% throttle and a map with all zeroes. Nothing but starter motor briefly turning things before just spinning like it thinks the bike has started.

    Without the PCV, bike starts with a little throttle but obviously won't run as it's now a 732.

    Bit of extra info...
    Relevant Mods are...
    105mm bore cylinder
    84.5 crank
    rally cam
    RallyRaid foam rally air filter
    SAS delete with resistor
    tekmo powerbomb header
    akrapovic exhaust
    PCV
    Autotune
    Quickshifter


    Anything that can be checked with a multimeter or TuneEcu has been quadruple checked.
    No Error codes
    Throttle body THAD and APAD both at 0.72v.
    All the fuel pump stuff is new with no kinks.
    Valves are spot on. I filmed myself building the engine so I know that's good. (Wish i'd filmed where the harness grounds)
    EVO2 FI & EP maps are loaded.
    Wiring harness completely checked, reinforced and rewrapped.
    All fuses are good.

    Awaiting a response from Dynojet.....:*sip*

    Edit: after carrying out a series of tests related to whether the PCV was getting sufficient power (which it was), it is now on it's way back to Dynojet for testing.
  2. The Letter J

    The Letter J Long timer

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    I seem to remember someone else who built a 732 out of their early 690 (654cc) had said they copied the maps from a later 690 (690cc) and pasted them into the early bike's maps. Does an Evo2 map exist for the 12-13 model?
  3. NoelJ

    NoelJ Long timer

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    Is there any chance the cam timing is off?
  4. Shmikes_1

    Shmikes_1 Perpetual Novice

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    Hey J, all the way through this build i've been wondering if a better way to go might be adjusting the maps directly in the ECU. There are EVO2 maps for the 12-13 model but as much as that'd get me closer to the fuelling I need, it would only get me half way, add to that that at this stage i'm genuinely feeling properly disheartened and stupid and not nearly as full of confidence that I, the supreme idiot, can just build a big bore bike with all the toys in the rainy AF back garden. I'm sure i'll get over it! A month or so back I opened up TuneEcu to have a look at the EVO2 tables vs the PCV shipped 732 adjustment map and thought I might have a go at building a fuel map based on the additional percentage values Dynojet predicted.
    Needless to say I soon realised I was possibly a bit out of my depth. I've successfully built custom maps before but only to change the seat of the pants feel, get rid of the annoying snatch in slow traffic and undo the over-fuelling the PO thought would be a good idea.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm not allergic to the idea of a well crafted spreadsheet calculating the correct(ish) fuel for a 732cc build using the 654 vs 690 to predict further fuelling required. I'm just worried i'll f%^& it up.
    Only other 732 build thread i've found was from Richo360 on here but he used a vortex.
    I'll go digging in tinternet but I don't suppose you remember if it was on here or not??

    P3Tuning here in the not so United Kingdom can build me a map in the ECU. Long term once it's running this would be my preferred route BUT the bike must be already running and in tip top shape before they do the million required dyno runs to do it.

    Did ring around all the KTM places that have dynamometers and they all were genuinely confused as to why I would want the ECU flashed over just using a PCV and autotune.

    Gonna download and review the 12-13 this evening.

    Cheers


    Hey NoelJ, It did cross my mind but I did film the whole engine build to avoid exactly this second guessing. All three holes were lined up correctly on the camshaft as well as a little paintbrush resting on the cylinder via the spark plug hole. After it was all together I screwed in an m6 bolt into the counter-balancer via the hole at the bottom left of the engine. Although in my memory I lined everything up when I did this to check, I didn't film this bit so now I have reasonable doubt...
    I've just rewatched the video, it's bang on with the tensioner engaged. Of course tomorrow, weather permitting, i'll be out in the garden checking it's as perfect as the video suggests by lining up everything and seeing if its bang on with the m6 bolt in.
    Richo360 warned me about making sure the camshaft timing was correct. I was very vigilant in fear of building a grenade.
    Will triple check tomorrow.

    Cheers
  5. The Letter J

    The Letter J Long timer

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    I swear it was here on ADV, but I've had a stroke since then, so who knows!? I spent the last hour looking and I'm coming up empty. I've always felt that if it can be compensated through an add-on, it can be changed in tuneECU, so I'd personally ditch the PCV. Richo had said his took more than the +15% fuel that his Vortex originally allowed, so I'd maybe try the 12-13 evo2 fueling and add 15-20% to that as a baseline, but that still wouldn't help with ignition timing, and I'm guessing that's where your no-start problem lies. I'd be inclined to pull a few degrees of timing out to play it safer and compensate for the increase in compression from the added stroke.

    Sorry I can't be of any help, but I'm hoping you solve it AND share your solution here. I haven't ridden in years, but I still have hope that I'll ride again... still have all my toys though! Going big (732) on my 690 would be a very strong possibility at that point (I've built a handful of my other bikes' engines in the mean time, some more ridiculous than others, just for the fun of it even though I can't ride them!)
    renogeorge likes this.
  6. Anders-

    Anders- 690R

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    Seem to recall there was a swedish guy here who mentioned replacing the injector with a model that could flow slightly more fuel, to get enough go-juice without long'ish open times.
  7. Shmikes_1

    Shmikes_1 Perpetual Novice

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    Hmmmm, so i've been digging around comparing the 12-13 EVO2 map to the 09 EVO2 map.
    The 690cc has 5.5% more capacity over the 654cc, and from my brief research I think I stand little chance of using the the 12-13 EVO2 map as a basis to try and calculate the leap up to 732 just shy of 12% capacity increase because...

    A. I don't know exactly how the difference of an extra spark plug is effecting the map. The 654 map has a much higher fuel input in the starting range than the 690cc map.

    B. I've taken a cross section of different fuel inputs across different revs and throttle positions and the amount of fuel compared to the equivalent positions doesn't directly correspond to the capacity increase. For example...
    • At 3200 revs and 50% throttle the 690cc has 6% more fuel being injected over the 654cc.
    • At 6000 revs and 10% throttle the 690cc has 3% more fuel being injected over the 654cc.
    • At 5000 revs and 100% throttle the 690cc has 8.5% more fuel being injected over the 654cc.
    Before I even start thinking about getting my head around the other maps, does it make sense to perhaps say that the twin spark maps are not in any way comparable because of the twin spark changing the fuel required? Perhaps i'm over thinking it and just need to add 11.9% more pulse duration across the board as i'm not converting to a twin spark. It's still just a big banger.

    Have I got this all wrong? Could I, should I, just add 11.9% more pulse duration to the main fuel maps and manifold air pressure maps across the board and leave the ignition advance maps alone as a base start up point?

    The fuel map shipped with the PCV shows way more in the 40-60% mid rev range. As much as 39% extra at 40% throttle and 3750 rpm.

    732 pcv map2.jpg

    Hmmmm..... Feel like i'm slowly answering my own questions.... must read more. :type

    Cheers
  8. Shmikes_1

    Shmikes_1 Perpetual Novice

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    Yeah I read about that on KTMForum... Took it up with GrayAreaKTM who sold me the kit. They reckoned it wasn't necessary for my needs. IIRC the stock injector is 420cc which means the 732 maxed out would be getting close to max duty. I figured if I reached a point, perhaps at a track day where I felt like it was running out of puff at the top end I would consider switching out the stock injector for the 500cc injector that GrayArea sell or maybe source a mid-high 400's injector. It's also my understanding that while the 500cc is quite possibly necessary for track days, it does potentially lead to rough idle and therefore low speed jerkiness which I just can't go back to. IIRC a 470cc injector is a good shout. Honestly don't know how to source one though. Thought I'd found one, didn't bookmark it. Idiot :fpalm

    Cheers
  9. RoundOz

    RoundOz Plenty of seasoning

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    Yes, I had seen that. I ended up finding an oem plate in slightly rough condition, shipped for about a third of that price. If anyone else wants a similar one, PM me.
  10. Shmikes_1

    Shmikes_1 Perpetual Novice

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    TLJ, sorry to hear about the stroke. Must be shit not being able to ride bikes. Maybe it's time for a trophy truck or a SxS. I'd be lost with out being able to ride.

    I think I was writing my previous post when you posted this ⬆️. Richo and his thread about his general lack of enthusiasm was the last little push I needed to take the plunge and rebuild everything. As you can probably see from my previous post the predicted % increase of often way above 15%.

    So....

    Got out in the garden today. Double checked the cam timing. M6 bolt in the counterbalancer via the engine case, hole in the cam lined up... all was absolutely spot on. Gotta say I was hoping it was gonna be needing adjustment and I could put all my woes down to somehow ballsing that up, but no... It was perfect.

    But that was just me ruling out the last thing I thought it could possibly be.

    Following on from the 'kinda want a life without PCV' comments earlier, I got to reading last night and let's just say I may have had a breakthrough with TuneEcu....

    What i've been up to re: TuneEcu, written up, will be quite a lengthy post. Should this not be in a new thread??
  11. Anders-

    Anders- 690R

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    If not posting in the 690 tuneecu-thread, at least leave a link there?

    Not tempted to ditch the semi ride by wire setup?


    @The Letter J - Hope you will recover as much as possible with therapy and time.
  12. cal08

    cal08 Long timer

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    I'm good with the post here. Winters coming and I'm now following your build. Most don't care I'm sure. Your call.
  13. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob Supporter

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  14. Shmikes_1

    Shmikes_1 Perpetual Novice

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    NoelJ and Anders- like this.
  15. wudu

    wudu n00b

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    Das Modell 2012-2013 Hut 690cc und eine Zündkerze. Bei den 2008-09? habe anderen Widerstand an der Drosselklappe. Die Arbeiten umgekehrt. Wenn der Stecker abgezogen ist Leerlauf und nicht Vollgas!!!
  16. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob Supporter

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    The 2012-2013 model has 690cc and a spark plug. In the 2008-09? have different resistance on the throttle valve. Work in reverse. When the plug is removed, idle and not full throttle!

    2012-2013 is 690 and DUAL spark plugs.
    The Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) should have the same resistance readings on all models 08-13.
    If you un-plug the TPS, it will only idle.
    ?

    Attached Files:

  17. Shmikes_1

    Shmikes_1 Perpetual Novice

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    Cheers Zuber and Wudu...

    I think i've finished all my maps today. Gonna carry on doing TuneEcu reading this evening to hopefully garner some more information. Might try disconnecting the TPS tomorrow.

    The 2009-2013 Enduro and SMC models are single spark.
    The 2012-2013 Duke models are DUAL spark.

    I checked the diagrams
    2009 690 enduro r ignition.png 2013 690 enduro r ignition.png 2013 690 duke ignition.png 2015 690 enduro r ignition.png
  18. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob Supporter

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    I stand corrected. Working with defective memory...

    Still don't know what Wudu wanted...
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  19. Shmikes_1

    Shmikes_1 Perpetual Novice

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    I know right?? I feel like the more info I stuff in an equal amount falls out from under the dunce hat.

    I kept referencing the Duke 690 wikipedia page as it has an updates comparison grid. Totally forgot that the duke got the updates first. Even had to (in a panic) double check that the 2013 counterbalancer and crank that I bought and used came from a duke.
  20. wudu

    wudu n00b

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    Du darfst nicht beim 2008-2009 das Programm von 2012 einspielen. Kannst nur die Tabletten kopieren!!!
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