New Rider...refuses to countersteer

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by CutterBill, Jun 15, 2019.

  1. no

    no dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    I'll grant you that looking in the direction you want to turn will help some people, but the fact remains that when you shove the handlebar forward in one direction you're going to get a lean in that direction and if you don't follow up with a steering input in that direction, you're falling over.
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  2. no

    no dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    I was just going to mention that you can do it blindfolded.
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  3. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades...

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    I'd like to see that. Let's drop you on a bike with a blindfold, then you try to figure out where you are going. How far you must go, what radius or even what direction the turn is that you must make... you can't see them.
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  4. no

    no dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    When you push forward on the grip, you turn in that direction. If you can't see, you don't know how much you are turning, but you're still turning in that direction. Isn't that obvious?
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  5. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades...

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    Sorry, I didn't realize you were in an entirely different conversation than I am.

    You see, target fixation - aka looking where you plan to go - has nothing to do with the actual techniques required to go. It only has to do with looking where you plan to go.

    That was all it was about, not the actual steering process. As you might observe, I pointed out other targeting processes that are the same, but in totally different applications. Heck, walking across a room requires you figure the path to take so you don't walk over furniture, the dog/cat, and your toddler. Person could be expert in handling skills, but suck with picking where they need to go. The difference between picking the right line on a track and the wrong one.
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  6. borderlinebob

    borderlinebob Been here awhile

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    Well I have read every post on this thread, and “so” much conflicting info.
    I think if someone who was “thinking” about getting into motorcycles read this first, they’d be paranoid or may just pack it in right then.
    I truly feel by trying to teach someone the concept of counter steering “before” actually trying to ride puts them at a huge disadvantage.
    When I convinced my wife she should get into motorcycles back in the 70s she bought herself a Yamaha DT125 2 stroke.
    First she learned the coordination between choke, throttle, and kick starter.
    Then the coordination between clutch and shifting. (She drove a manual trans car no problem)
    Then the 2 separate brake systems.
    She already rode a bike so as I recall, no teaching involving steering was even mentioned.
    Off she went.
    The clutch -feet down - shift -at a stop bothered her enough that her next bike was a Honda CB400 Honda-matic
    Shortly after a Shadow 500 with a clutch again.
    NEVER in all this was “steering “ ever a problem and she never crashed. “Some luck?—Sure”
    I’m self taught at about 12 years old on mostly gravel roads. Avoiding bears, beavers, snakes, porcupines, potholes that hang up logging trucks made sure something as easy to avoid as a “car” hasn’t been as issue :lol3

    One poster said that yes; counter steering is just intuitive BUT you have to totally understand it and practice it and think about it, OR when you have to make a sudden change due to a vehicle in your lane or something, you will hit the vehicle or crash. I disagree! No time to think through all that, it’s instinct and experience.

    Do you have to think about downshifting as you come up to a stop?
    NO, you just do it. It is reflex as is steering.

    If the person this thread is about is that “fixated” on counter steering; sorry they just aren’t cut out to ride.
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  7. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

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    Seems that motos may not be for her. I’d take a giant step back, this may not end well, and you don’t want to get the guilt all over you.

    Barry
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  8. DR Donk

    DR Donk Been here awhile

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    And how to use a manual shift transmission :deal
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  9. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Souped-Up Weasel

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    What instinct was passed down from your long-ago ancestors that taught you how to countersteer? My long-ago ancestors didn't even have motorcycles. In fact, the instincts that my long-ago ancestors passed down (freeze in place, keep an eye on the threat) are the exact opposite of how you would want to handle an object in your path on a motorcycle.

    In reality, guiding your motorcycle through a dangerous situation is an exercise in disregarding your instincts. With practice, you may be able to do it without much conscious thought, but it's a far cry from an "instinct." Why in the world you would tell someone not to think about it or try to understand it is absolutely mind-boggling to me.
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  10. slartidbartfast

    slartidbartfast Love those blue pipes Supporter

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    Nope - can (and frequently do) teach that fairly easily. Balancing/steering a bike is almost impossible to teach in a short space of time to someone with no bicycle experience.
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  11. Khantahr

    Khantahr Adventurer

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    What instinct told you that turning a wheel clockwise turns the car to the right?

    Instinct may not be exactly the right term, but steering a bicycle or motorcycle is pretty intuitive for most people, they hop on and go, and quickly figure out how to make it turn.

    My personal un-scientific opinion is that most people who get into trouble with turning are afraid of leaning to the degree required because they're afraid of washing out, or they target fixate where they don't want to go. Yes, fixation has nothing to do with steering directly, but when you're surprised or scared, you're going to go where you look unless you've trained VERY hard to overcome that tendency.
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  12. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    interesting to see that you are still as obtuse as you ever were
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  13. no

    no dreaming adventurer Supporter

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    Dang it, that degree in physics is making me obtuse.
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  14. borderlinebob

    borderlinebob Been here awhile

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    OK Jim, sorry to boggle your mind.
    I’ll be 70 this Oct. Had my first motorcycle in 1961 and learned to ride myself. Rode it at 110% most of the time on logging roads where I lived dodging all kind of obstacles like numerous animals and occasional logging trucks. They hated me:jack
    I crashed lots but on a 50cc bike with a flexible 12 year old body no major damage. I guess that’s where “my” instinct came from and so far I’ve never crashed into any of the numerous vehicles that tried to take me out on the streets.
    I never meant to suggest anyone ignore or disregard the understanding of counter steering.. I meant for me the split second you have to avoid an obstacle is spent “just doing” what’s required to avoid it.
    Not gonna waste valuable time “thinking” about counter steering.

    Do you agree with what I said about shifting? Intuitive or do you have to think it through?
    Also let’s remember the original post was about a “new” rider learning and hung up on counter steering, not about accident avoidance.
    Also please understand I’ve no interest in any confrontation, just discussion :hide
    Regards
    #94
  15. BetterLateThanNever

    BetterLateThanNever Long timer

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    Isn't this all we really need to know? Before we careen off into another talmudic debate about countersteering?
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  16. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Souped-Up Weasel

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    That's the part I disagree with. If you don't understand what makes a motorcycle turn, if you can't do it quickly and precisely, chances are you're not going to be able to conjure up that skill when you really need to. You might be able to do it, but there are plenty of instances (including the earlier video) where people crash motorcycles because they couldn't make their bike execute a simple turn.
    #96
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  17. borderlinebob

    borderlinebob Been here awhile

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    Not sure if when you say “you”if you mean me?
    But I’m done Jim.
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  18. oldgrizz

    oldgrizz Long timer Supporter

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    When I was an instructor with the Alberta Safety Council we taught counter steering using the following.
    We had a T intersection made with cones.
    The instructor stood at the top of the T
    We had the student ride toward the instructor and as they approached we would give them either a right or left hand signal.
    Watching the front tire it was easy to see if it was done correctly.
    We would have them slowly build up the speed and we would delay the signal.

    After I moved to B.C. I was teaching a friends wife and I told her to complete the turn even if she started to turn the wrong way.
    On one pass I signaled left and she started to turn right. So I stepped away from her.
    She then decided to turn left so I stepped in the other direction.
    She then remembered to turn the way she started even if it was wrong.
    She did this just as I tried to step away and she ran right into me.
    It hurts when you get run into by a Honda 550 4 cup at 30 mph.
    I think you could read Dunlop on my inner thigh.
    Ouch.
    I told her when you run into the instructor you fail that portion of the course.
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  19. WhereIsBobL

    WhereIsBobL Been here awhile

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    You can try this, which has worked for me before. Get her on her bicycle. Tell her to sit straight, try not to lean her body at all, then have her force weave. Whether it is with cones or not. Set something up like the MSF swerve pattern, but have her practice that on her bicycle, and be sure she tries to FORCE a swerve. She may never be able to ride a motorcycle, but she might start to get it eventually.

    However, having been an MSF instructor, and ridden with people that took the course, some people really are not meant to ride motorcycles. Sure, with enough perseverance and time, she might get it, but that is some serious dedication. IF she is that dedicated, then keep trying.

    If you want some vintage footage there is this:


    Or you can confuse and bore her with this


    OK, there are a ton of videos out there, some are wrong, most are confusing to someone who does not have that kind of mind. Don't put too much pressure on her.

    Maybe try dirt bikes for a bit.

    But really, understanding countersteering comes later. First get used to controlling a bike. Just have her do large figure 8's. Then some BIG weaves, jut put out a bunch of cones and have her do whatever she wants for a while. Forget the HOW and WHY, and stick with the DO for now. And for G*DS Sake, keep her off the streets until she is ready.
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  20. CROSSBOLT

    CROSSBOLT Been here awhile

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    Degree in physics...gimme a break.