New Thumper: SWM Superdual 650

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by tangerine, Jan 15, 2015.

  1. One67

    One67 Tell 'em the captain sent ya.

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    Thanks for that, I just wasn't sure if you left the GND and signal wire still connected to the O2 sensor, all clear now.
    My '18 model also had a horrible stalling problem just above idle before I adjusted the TPS.
    Hopefully the O2 resistor will make it even better.
    Does the cat come out of the mufflers easy enough when you pull them apart ?
  2. vsaltao

    vsaltao Been here awhile

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    There is a cure for the forks :), just buy old te250 forks (they are cheap nowadays) and swap them (direct swap, i guess on the dual new springs will be needed), 300mm vs 240mm and lots of adjustments. this was the best mod i have done for offroad (lowered footpegs also rocked).
    I used the torque from the te630 in the forks and no problems.

    i Know she will never be a ktm in terms of power , i also knew that when i bought it so no problem there

    From what i have read here and in FB (for the rs650) the best setting is flow through cans and arrow map (no need for o2 bypass).
    I cant gut mine because we are going to have road inspection in Portugal in the future and i need them for that :).
    But i am going the single can and new pipe for weight reduction (Waiting for innathyzit to resolve all the issues so i can copy :) :) :) )


    innathyzit likes this.
  3. vsaltao

    vsaltao Been here awhile

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    Cant you just use a JD fuel tuner to get rid of it ? From what i have read those are simple than the PC and EJK and let you just put more or less fuel at certain rpms, some guys are also using them in Australia in the rs650 (dunno if they work on the Euro4 swm´s)

  4. One67

    One67 Tell 'em the captain sent ya.

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    The "piggy back" fuel tuners have to be made with the right plugs and base map for the specific bike.
    I checked the EJK site, they don't have one for the Superdual yet.

    I just did the O2 sensor mod on my euro4 model, so much better.

    Icedvolvo, in which order did you do the mods to your bike ?
    I'm thinking about turning the TPS back, as it may be too rich in the higher rev range now that the low revs are sorted.
    I know you've removed the cats from yours, so you probably need a bit extra fuel.
    Rotax655 likes this.
  5. Rotax655

    Rotax655 Aprilia World Meeting

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    good. now that you have obtained good results on the delivery and linearity of the engine, you can control the carburetion by connecting a digital tester with a full scale of 1000 millivolts to the lbda probe. here is a graph of what you can read through a tester connected to the lambda probe
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Inviato dal mio GT-I9060I utilizzando Tapatalk
  6. icedvolvo

    icedvolvo Adventurer

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    OK Im glad Im not the only one with the stalling problem!

    No the cats do not come out easily! I had an exhaust guy do mine and he opened up the whole internals of the mufflers as well. However I am going to convert to a single pipe as soon as I move the coolant overflow tank and get rid of the vapour tank.

    As to adjusting I borrowed an exhaust gas analyser and adjusted my TPS until it was just above lambda = 1 ... so just a tad rich and that's good for me, there is still a dead spot above idle but hopefully there will be an "Arrow" map sooner or later.

    As I said above if you want 'tuning" capability then instead of disconnecting the lambda sensor make a simple voltage divider follows:

    Lambda signal from probe ------------R1--/\/\/\/\/\/ ---- ECU lamda signal-----Rv--\/\/\/\/\/\------- ECU Gnd

    Lambda probes give about 450mV for lambda=1 (lean) and voltage goes less for leaner: more O2. So the idea is to drop a little off the voltage so the ECU thinks it is lean and adds more fuel but lambdas are not linear so a reading of 350mV is VERY lean and 550mV is VERY rich so the adjustment of Rv is very critical time consuming cos the ECU takes about 5min to adjust the short term fuel map.

    I will not bother doing this cos my bike is running ok for now but if I did I would start with R1 = about 10k and Rv a 100k multi turn variable resistor.

    1) Leave lambda probe connected but with interrupted ECU signal lines as before
    2) adjust Rv for full resistance i.e. 100k
    3) start up bike and allow to get hot
    4) measure lambda output, should see oscillating between <300mV and >600mV and ECU signal ~ lambda signal
    5) adjust Rv so that ECU signal is 50mV less than lambda output
    6) idle for 5min or until ECU signal returns to oscillate same as before but is now 50mV less: ECU is running richer than before
    7) test ride or use exhaust analyser to check running
    8) loop back to step 5 until you get the desired result.

    But as I said I am not doing this as mine is fine now, still a little lean at idle-2500 rpm but after that it is good!

    PS thanks to rotax655 above for the graph of lambda above. The interesting bit is that max performance is when lambda probe is 0.9 or 900mV ....
    cyclopathic and innathyzit like this.
  7. innathyzit

    innathyzit AKA Woodman

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    Crikey.........
  8. One67

    One67 Tell 'em the captain sent ya.

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    I'm surprised yours still has a dead spot, I rode mine for the first time since doing the O2 mod and it feels very smooth, so much better than just the TPS adjustment.
    As soon as somebody makes a fuel tuner, I'll gut the pipes and put it on the dyno.
    That's the only way to clean the whole Euro4 crap out of the bike and get it right.
  9. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    Anyone tried DynoJet PC V with autotuner?
  10. One67

    One67 Tell 'em the captain sent ya.

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    Not unless they make it with Superdual plugs.
  11. vsaltao

    vsaltao Been here awhile

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    Thats strange, because i know some guys are using them on a rs650 (maybe some other italian bikes use the athena cdi and plugs).

  12. Rotax655

    Rotax655 Aprilia World Meeting

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    Interesting.
    I would like to understand how they did without a "dedicated" software for the RS650R
    Do not just connect a cable ............ to something that I did not understand what it is.

    However, the performance obtainable with "open loop", therefore without a lambda sensor, is excellent without other modifications to the control unit
    In this way, pollution and fuel consumption are penalized only partially (this is obvious)
  13. icedvolvo

    icedvolvo Adventurer

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    Yes I agree, have done the mufflers, TPS and O2 mod and bike is now fine for what I want it for power wise.

    Next on the agenda is the front forks ....
  14. Syanur

    Syanur Been here awhile

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    What is the possibility of WP forks (and shocks) fitting into SWM 650 ies..?
  15. icedvolvo

    icedvolvo Adventurer

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    Now that is a very good question!

    The lower triple clamp is 58mm and the upper 54mm so modern WPs wont fit but its not just the forks if you want to use the existing wheel etc then you will need an axle conversion kit which KTM used to sell from memory. Then u need spacers etc to match the disc to the caliper that's if the the caliper and disc fit the WP ... etc etc

    So the other alternative is just to swap everything forks, wheels etc but then you have to swap the back as well because the ABS counter discs have different numbers of holes in them (the SWM has more) than the KTMs with ABS and so it goes on ....

    So in summary: Its doable but not trivial if you want to keep the ABS ...

    The ABS is actually is OK for road (it should be its Brembo!). If you are mainly off road then you dont need the ABS: its dangerous on dirt anyway!

    The other suggestion was to swap for the old TE630 forks but that's almost as bad because they were Marzhocci who don't exist anymore.

    So IF we (Suspension Matters) can't fix the FastAce forks then I may swap to a KTM front end (forks/wheels/caliper/disc/axle) and just ditch the ABS altogether!

    As to the shock its a Sachs which means we can get valving, seals and other parts for it. Its actually not to bad, just no compression adjustment ...

    NOTE: As a side note: I pulled my front wheel off to take the forks up to Suspension Matters for a preliminary look but in doing so noted there was no grease at all I mean NONE on the front spacers and axle so if you have a new bike please check it.
    Syanur likes this.
  16. CapeG650X

    CapeG650X Been here awhile

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    SD Sachs has compression adjustment.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
  17. icedvolvo

    icedvolvo Adventurer

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    OK .. manual only mentions rebound adjustment and I cannot find any compression adjustment: this is not the preload adjuster but compression damping adjustment. If you have found one please let us know where it is please.
  18. Rotax655

    Rotax655 Aprilia World Meeting

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    the Te630 mounts a marzocchi without hydraulic compression adjustment that "could" fit the superdual. it was also mounted on the first version of the rs650r then replaced by mediocre fastace. to this fork with a modification you can also fit this adjustment which however I do not think is necessary. (I feel good without it). the top of the range for a fork of 45 would be the "shiver" version the marzocchi no longer exists, unfortunately, but the spare parts will be found for at least the next 10 years
  19. CapeG650X

    CapeG650X Been here awhile

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    Hey Icedvolvo, i may be wrong about comp adjustment on rear (i could be thinkin of one of my other bikes?), im 1000's of k's away from the SD atm to check sorry.

    Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
  20. Syanur

    Syanur Been here awhile

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    So do you have any idea which WP model/year can fit? That was in my mind; complete front end change for RS/SM model so ABS was not my concern...

    I made quick search but couldn't find a source that shows pre WP forks dia...

    I don't get why the manufacturers sabotage themselves just for saving couple of cents...