Open Mindedness To Learn, Understand, Or Consider Change

Discussion in 'Trials' started by PMK, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. PMK

    PMK Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Oddometer:
    448
    Location:
    SoFlo, USA
    No doubt, each person born into the world, may have fears or concerns at some point in regard to change within their routine. Sometimes, I see it in various website forums or in person face to face. The wise person listens, evaluates, then determines the validity and accuracy of the information. Sometimes however, there is no means to determine if the information is good or not, other than evaluating for yourself, or getting additional info from others that may know if it is fact or fiction.

    I am sensing a tension from Twin-shocker towards me. Apparently, my own evaluation regarding some of his methods, techniques, and ideas regarding motorcycles differ between us, and possibly others here.

    Myself, I see these forums as a place to enjoy, learn and have fun. When wrong I am able to say that and move on. By no means am I stating it's my way or the highway and everyone else is wrong. In most cases that would be a fools approach.

    The recent discussion regarding carb tuning saw differences. Others have their methods and setups that work for them, and that is fine. Some, like Twin-shocker believe that old technology remains superior to new technology based on opinions they post, but no hard data.

    Twin-shocker has tried a couple times to drag, not only my information regarding a topic I started about footpeg location, but also a topic regarding other frame mods posted by someone else, to this website, rather than speak his mind on those topics.

    Then today, I see another post from him, and I am not certain if he posted sarcastically to poke fun, or was serious when he mentioned that swapping needles altered the transition off idle in a carb. This differs from his steadfast insistence to change slides or needle jets, so it did catch my eye. I did post a link to the carb manufacturers website tuning page that validated my words and technique, therefore I am unsure if was a jab or praise.

    Myself, I am willing to read and learn. However, sometimes, experiences, time, or cost prevent the simplistic compliance to accomplish things such as removing a modern carb and installing a 50 year old style carb. As for frame mods, no shame in sharing accurate knowledge, but if others prefer to make mods, unless known to be dangerous, why not share your thoughts and let them be.

    Being past the topics that sparked differences, there are no ill feelings towards you, your methods or techniques from me. So please, just let it go.

    I suspect others may have similar thoughts, or have these same ideas towards me. Get it out, and lets move forward and have fun. Life is short, enjoy every moment while you can.

    To be absolutely, 110% totally clear, this topic and post is not an attack towards Twin-shocker or anyone else, so please do not misread, misinterpret, or read anything more into the words I posted, it is not there.
    #1
    10K likes this.
  2. lineaway

    lineaway Long timer

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2011
    Oddometer:
    9,097
    Location:
    nm
    Twin-shocker has been trolling you, and most of us knew it. He has been banned from other forums before. But he is a person of knowledge in the UK. But insists on being Troll like.
    #2
    jonnyc21, 10K, Brewtus and 1 other person like this.
  3. 2whlrcr

    2whlrcr gooligan

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Oddometer:
    12,762
    Location:
    Dubuque, Iowa
    Twin shocks were popular in the 60's, so were these...

    [​IMG]
    #3
  4. Twin-shocker

    Twin-shocker Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2012
    Oddometer:
    1,761
    Learning from others who have many years of first hand experience of whatever it is you are interested in is a very good way of gaining knowledge its impossible to find on the net. Technology is always moving forward though and a good example of this would be fitting a modern resonant induction system to a vintage machine to improve performance and is simply a matter of applying newer technology to an older machine and isn't something which requires any sort of in depth expert knowledge.
    #4
  5. Gordy

    Gordy SUPPORTER

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2001
    Oddometer:
    30,173
    Location:
    NM
    :2cry

    Really??? Over jetting a carb?? :rofl

    My jetting technique is usually "oh crap it's got a flat spot, I'll ride around the bog until I have some time.......maybe"
    #5
  6. UstaKood

    UstaKood Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Oddometer:
    232
    Location:
    Michigan

    Dear Mr. Obvious ....
    #6
  7. PMK

    PMK Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Oddometer:
    448
    Location:
    SoFlo, USA
    Ironically, not just jetting. Often, you must play the cards you are dealt. I will say though that some people have a difficult time on anything less than what they deem as perfect. On more than a few occasions, I have told others, there is nothing we can do out here to fix it or make it perfect. Adapt, Overcome and Conquer.
    #7
    10K and Gordy like this.
  8. 10K

    10K Trail Runner

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2004
    Oddometer:
    2,428
    Location:
    Arizona
    Ignore the troll.
    #8
    jonnyc21 likes this.
  9. fprintf

    fprintf Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2017
    Oddometer:
    239
    Location:
    Connecticut, USA
    upload_2018-11-28_10-42-8.png
    Click on his profile, and then click Ignore. Personally I don't know any better so am content to follow the banter, but totally understand why it would irritate.
    #9
    Dirt Dud likes this.
  10. Huzband

    Huzband Team Dirt

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2006
    Oddometer:
    8,205
    Location:
    Cowford, Fl.

    Some of that is worthy of a thread. The rest is PM material.
    #10
  11. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 46 years

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Oddometer:
    5,475
    Location:
    Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
    I PM'd and did my best.
    #11
  12. PMK

    PMK Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Oddometer:
    448
    Location:
    SoFlo, USA
    Agree, however, I have no ill intents towards anyone here, even if they find me an easy target. I respect the guy for his words, but want him to engage with quality info AND have others be a part of what can be, not was has been. A PM would not allow this.

    If one thing is upsetting to me, I was called out in regards to experience. I get it, but as we all know, being thousands of miles apart, having never met face to face, is one thing, but if I am being called out regarding qualifications, I expect the person asking to validate themselves on qualifications also.

    Ironically, I suspect for most of us...buy a trials bike, add fuel, make a few adjustments to the levers, set tire pressure and enjoy. Granted some may swap heads or make drastic jetting changes, but overall, for mortals the bikes are likely very good out of the crate.
    #12
    jonnyc21, 10K, Nobade and 2 others like this.
  13. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 46 years

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Oddometer:
    5,475
    Location:
    Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
    Your desire for Open Mindedness To Learn, Understand, Or Consider Change
    is evident! You wear it on your sleeves.

    Kind of quiet around here as the vortex has moved off somewhere....
    #13
  14. PMK

    PMK Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Oddometer:
    448
    Location:
    SoFlo, USA
    [
    Last seen here on Nov 28 is far from what I want or hope for. Twin-shocker presents ideas that do have me consider the why to his idea. For me, there are no regrets in asking him to explain why.

    Sadly, Twin-shocker seems to have stepped back a bit. As mentioned previously by me, I hope he is not contending with other life issues keeping him away. Patiently, I use the word awaiting, with hopes he asks the references he used, meaning other riders, the why and what specifically makes the Mikuni VM round slide carb superior to the Keihin PWK from a performance standpoint.

    If every person were exactly a like, and the things we do or stuff we have was all identical, life might be easier, but boring. Here on the internet, if everyone said yes and agreed fully with whatever opinion another person held, and accepted it blindly, that too seems boring.
    #14
  15. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 46 years

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Oddometer:
    5,475
    Location:
    Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
    I agree. We are a small community of the near extinct (numbers- not passion-wise). We need everyone. Well almost.

    #15
    Huzband and Norman Foley like this.
  16. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Oddometer:
    4,864
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR
    I'll bite.


    Pwk vs. Vm

    It's been a while since I did this so allow for fuzzy memory.

    I have a project woods enduro bike. YZ125 chassis. Blaster motor. (200cc 2 stroke air cooled, no powervalve, reed intake)

    The stock carb is a VM26. After running the stock carb for a few months I switched to a PWK28. Having only the usual jetting (main,pilot,needle clip) on each carb the VM really was better on the very bottom end. Call it 1/16th throttle. The bike required a little less rev when letting the clutch out, so as a result stalled less and was generally easier to ride just off idle.

    The difference was fairly small, and since the PWK was vastly superior 1/2 throttle and up, I kept it.

    Many moons later I put some effort into swapping needles on the PWK, and made an improvement in the off-idle. Is it as good as the VM was? Maybe. It's been so long between the two setups that I don't really know.

    Anyway, to the point....

    Can the VM run better than the PWK, both with 'best possible' tuning? My experience says quite possibly.

    Why? Obvious first possibility is the size. 26mm vs 28mm. Smaller bores have an advantage for low end. Second, the slide shape. It's quite different, so why couldn't it matter?
    #16
    DyrWolf likes this.
  17. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 46 years

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Oddometer:
    5,475
    Location:
    Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
    I think if you optimize jetting for either one the result could be a neck-to-neck feel in a shootout. However, given all the variables it's not easy to get to equivalent optimization of both carbs.

    I don't think 26 versus 28mm is something to hard reference because the slide/Venturi designs are different enough to mess with the comparison.

    In general the PWK is known for great 1/16th throttle response making it a tough job for the VM to best it there.
    #17
  18. PMK

    PMK Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Oddometer:
    448
    Location:
    SoFlo, USA
    Typically though, a carb that jets clean easier will run better because we all get the “good enoughs”. Saying that though, no doubt a VM could be jetted clean.

    I still suspect the turbulence created by the round slide, vs the PWK “D” slide, and I may be wrong, the round slide will not be as good. Then again, the added turbulence could “fluff” the jetting to be good while less accurate.

    I honestly do not know. That was why I asked repeatedly to Twin Shocker, why is the VM better. The VM is a few generations older than the PWK. Mikuni has two generations after the VM that compete against the Keihin PWK.

    Maybe old bikes like old carb designs...and old riders...
    #18
  19. Norman Foley

    Norman Foley Devotee of the Husqvarna Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Oddometer:
    2,581
    Location:
    New York... The Finger Lakes
    On the VM carb. The slide cutaway is extremely critical. The wrong one for your application and you will chase the set up endlessly.
    #19
  20. PMK

    PMK Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Oddometer:
    448
    Location:
    SoFlo, USA
    Because you can not easily change the needle straight section, you kind of tune a VM by cutaway.
    #20
    Norman Foley likes this.