Project Hand Banana

Discussion in 'Some Assembly Required' started by madrider5150, Nov 7, 2016.

  1. madrider5150

    madrider5150 Riding somewhere

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    I'm pretty sure I over oiled the headbolts and so it got way over torqued , should have stopped and started over. Its cometic gaskets so fo in steps up to 42 ft lbs.
    Just ordered a bolt extractor. Was getting excited to get this back running and then this. I'll order the stud when I get home
  2. AK650

    AK650 Long timer Supporter

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    That sucks! As anotherguy said, better having it happen on the bench! Hope it goes well, when the new studs arrive. Did you overtorque all of them, or was this one the first to get final torque? If there's even a chance the others were over stressed, it would probably be money ahead to replace them all.
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  3. madrider5150

    madrider5150 Riding somewhere

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    The rest of them hit torque spec more or less as expected, just the one kept going.. I think it will be okay just replacing the one, but you may be right. I just tend to fuck something else up while doing that lol.
    And I was able to extract the stud with a voice grips in a bit of good news, thanks @anotherguy for that.
  4. madrider5150

    madrider5150 Riding somewhere

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    Studs are 5.99 a pop from ronnies, see no reason to get something other than OEM. So I'll order 4 of them, maybe replace the others, see how it goes
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  5. AK650

    AK650 Long timer Supporter

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    :thumb
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  6. anotherguy

    anotherguy Long timer

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    A quick question? Did you have the heads decked? Cylinders cut? Thinner than OEM gaskets? Sometimes that takes enough material off to allow the head bolt to run out of travel (bottom out on stud) before it clamps the assembly. Install (w/o cylinder/head) a headbolt until it bottoms and measure the distance. Then measure the cylinder,head and gaskets (used so it's compressed) and compare the two dimensions. Verify this so it doesn't happen again. I've never snapped a stud tightening and I use copious amounts of oil from an oil can when assembling. Like I said I'm a 35 year Harley tech with a lot of high performance experience. I see twisting damage and this makes me wonder why it happened. I've assembled hundreds of Evo engines both Big Twin and Sportster. Check this.
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  7. madrider5150

    madrider5150 Riding somewhere

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    The heads were decked only to prep surface not to raise cr, shouldn't have been enough to prevent torque spec to be reached. The rear head torqued down no problem and the rest of the bolts hit 42 ft lbs. I also ordered a new torque wrench just cause
  8. anotherguy

    anotherguy Long timer

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    Verify the distance. Manufacturing tolerance.
  9. madrider5150

    madrider5150 Riding somewhere

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    My micrometer broke a while ago and Ill be honest, I suck at measuring- especially distances like that. I contacted hammer about what happened and am waiting on a reply and an invoice for head and base gaskets
  10. madrider5150

    madrider5150 Riding somewhere

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    20190914_184153.jpg 20190914_184213.jpg
    Maybe it's hard to see but the bottom of the rockerbox has some gouges on the mating surface. Not sure what would have caused this and does it appear beyond acceptable?
  11. madrider5150

    madrider5150 Riding somewhere

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    Perhaps these engine inquiries are more suited to XL Forum... Anyway seeing as how these are two flat mating surfaces with one piece metal gaskets between them- at least from cometic. The only theory talking with friends is the shop used some rudimentary method to scrape off the factory gasket resulting in these gouges- maybe using a chisel. It doesnt seem possible for them to occur in any other way while the is running... I just sanded it down a bit and went ahead and installed it. Its crazy thinking a shop would do that but just no other way really?!
  12. madrider5150

    madrider5150 Riding somewhere

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    So today with a new base gasket, torque wrench, piston ring compressor tool and my one replaced cylinder stud I proceed with assembly. Everything is going well until torquing to 42 foot lbs again. This time it's the front left stud which will not hit torque after spinning and spinning and instead of going until breakage I disassembled and went to remove the stud. Double nut method isn't working, the threads have begun to deform and no tightening is possible. And I was feeling really good about an hour ago lol. May have to order the stud puller again. What an absolute cluster fuck
  13. madrider5150

    madrider5150 Riding somewhere

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    Okay so after a battle I won using double nut and vice grips I got all the studs but the new one out, replaced red loctite and 12 foot lbs of torque, piston and cylinder back on and about to give it another go torquing the head down. Fingers crossed...
    20190916_154323.jpg
  14. madrider5150

    madrider5150 Riding somewhere

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    I think @anotherguy is right, too much material removed and head won't torque down. The same bolt that originally snapped just keeps spinning, I can tell it'll snap if I keep going. Got another call out to hammerperf...
    The others all torqued down to 40 foot lbs, didn't even go up to 42.
  15. madrider5150

    madrider5150 Riding somewhere

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    I will see what hammer says but I'm about to throw in the towel. I enjoy wrenching on my own bike but the frustration and continued problems are seriously getting me down and I really like the new v85tt and other bikes I might actually be able to ride. This has been a total money pit for the last 2 years and I just bought a grand worth of tools, lifters, headwork etc and now may end up in some kind of dispute with hammer as to the work they did? I'm a scientist and follow everything to the T. Call them to verify what I'm doing is correct and just can't possibly see how it might be something I'm doing wrong- this stuff isn't that hard, just a pain in the ass...
  16. tinwelp

    tinwelp Professional Idiot

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    Ahhh, you give up too easily madrider...

    I've zero experience of working on HD engines, so feel free to shoot me down with flames, but my engineering mind sees an obvious problem here. Assuming I'm understanding what I'm seeing.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks as if the studs screw into the crankcase, with the cylinder and head clamped down by sleeve nuts. If you're unable to torque the sleeve nuts correctly, surely the problem is the top of the stud is hitting the inside of the sleeve nut before the sleeve nut touches down hard on the cylinder head? If so, there are only two possible causes here. Either the studs are too long, or the threaded bore of the sleeve nut is too short. Skimming the heads and cylinders will of course make things worse, but the answer is super simple in all cases... unless I'm not understanding something.

    Why are you not simply dressing the end of the stud to ensure clearance? Five seconds with a bench grinder or 30s with a file is all it will take.

    You may find that the sleeve nut on the stud that you cannot torque down is poorly machined, or has some crap hidden up in its bore. So another solution is inspect/clean/replace that one sleeve nut.

    Yet another solution is add a washer under the seat of the sleeve nut.


    So generally I'm suggesting you forget about how the cylinder stud solution should work (because this puts all your faith into whomever made the parts you're using and the guy who specified the tolerance on the drawing in the first place) and start thinking about the real problem. Then the cause of the problem. Then the solution to the problem. You're a scientist? So use the scientific method!


    I apologise if that comes over as a little harsh, but damn it, towel throwing is reserved only for hissy-fit bartenders! And hipsters.


    Cheers... Paul
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  17. madrider5150

    madrider5150 Riding somewhere

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    The idea of throwing a thin spacer under that stud had also occurred to me. Are there some unforeseen problems that could occur from that?
    What gets me is paying almost 600$ to have the heads done and no warning this could be a result if it is the problem which I can't think of what else it could be.
    The headbolts and studs are OEM. The engine has been apart now 3 times in the last year. I'm madrider, not madwrencher and admit yesterday I got pretty down about it. I don't like to ad lib on bolting an engine together, I want things to go the way they are designed to. But I'll see what hammer says and may give the spacer a shot.
    I'm all ears to any ideas or criticism, my breaking point has been about 5 years in the making of fixing each problem and deficiency on this thing to have a new one pop up trying to turn this into something it is not.
  18. tinwelp

    tinwelp Professional Idiot

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    I fully appreciate what you're saying madrider, but if you really want to get back to riding, forgive me for pointing out an obvious flaw in your approach: forget trying to pin the blame on someone and get to fixing it yourself. It's very unlikely to be the fault of the company where you bought the parts (Hammer, I assume?). However, I would expect them to give you advice on how to fix it, although surely that's just courtesy... I doubt there's any obligation on their side. Seriously, this is a simple problem with easy solutions, all of which you can sort out yourself.

    Adding a spacer is the least attractive solution as you need to make or find something the right size, and the spacer could change the clamping force resulting from the installation torque (but only by a tiny amount). Running a tap down the inside of the sleeve nut, or grinding a few millimeters from the end of the stud that's bottoming out are both free.

    Personally I'd be peering at the sleeve nuts very closely, looking for one that's slightly different to the others, then cleaning it out and run a tap into it. If I find nothing then it's likely one or more of the studs are not seating correctly in the crankcase. With the cylinder in place, do any of the studs seem to sit a little higher than the others?

    Good luck my friend!

    Cheers... Paul
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  19. madrider5150

    madrider5150 Riding somewhere

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    Im not trying to put any blame on hammer- they are a great company and encourage their customers to do work themselves and guide them through the process- that being said it would have been helpful to have a heads up to this potential issue. I would highly recommend them to anyone regardless of my issues- if they are even related to the work on my heads that is.

    Just to put in perspective this is my first time this deep in an engine- I dont know little tricks or solutions to running into issues like this. Ive now pulled the cylinder and piston and wrist pin C clip at least 4 times, so also just venting some frustration with it.

    So I have an angle grinder I could use to take some material off the offending headbolt or take it to a shop and have them whisk of a little material which might be the better option as my method will not have much precision at all. Maybe .1" or 1 mm to start? Also can run the tap up the headbolts and flip flop them and see if it makes a difference.
    I appreciate the input and advice Paul!
  20. AK650

    AK650 Long timer Supporter

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    If you have a caliper, Run the depth plunger down all the sleavenuts and see if you’ve got some oddballs. May be a booger of foreign matter in there. A better check may be to run some threaded rod down each one by hand and see if they bottom out consistently. Just a light decking of the heads, and a thinner head gasket shouldn’t be causing this kind of grief but never say never! Hope things improve!
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