Proposed Colorado FS and other trail closings that WILL affect you.

Discussion in 'The Rockies – It's all downhill from here...' started by jjmead1, Nov 18, 2015.

  1. _CJ

    _CJ Rugged Individualist

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    Yeah, IMBA is bad news. There's a large percentage of the MTB community who refuse to support them, or the clubs they're affiliated with. I show up for trail work days, but won't give any money to a club that's friendly with IMBA because a portion of that money goes back to them and they use it to keep MTB's out of wilderness land, and help groups like Sierra club work against other groups. Unfortunately, they have one of those feel good names and people new to the sport think they're doing good by supporting them.
    #61
  2. zzsean

    zzsean Adventurer

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    IMBA sees the Sierra club as the enemy like we do.
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  3. _CJ

    _CJ Rugged Individualist

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    Nope. Their relationship goes way back, and continues to this day. They hold hands with them, make agreements with them, and support their efforts to have public lands closed to other user groups...so long as the mighty Sierra Club agrees to "recognize them". :rolleyes Hell, they probably go to lunch together (and pick up the tab with IMBA member's dues), being that they're both based in Boulder.

    https://www.imba.com/about/history

    "April 1994 - Five IMBA leaders met with five leaders of the national Sierra Club in Park City, Utah, as the culmination of a six-month mediation process. One outcome of the meeting was written recognition - for the first time - by the Sierra Club that responsible mountain bicycling is a legitimate recreational activity, including on narrow trails. This meeting also led to the separation of mountain biking from motorized trail use in official Sierra Club policy."
    #63
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  4. dmac1

    dmac1 Long timer

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    Interesting stuff CJ.

    From 1989:
    "Bylaws and articles of incorporation were developed. Specialized held a "No Trails, No Sales" breakfast (emphasis added) at Interbike in cooperation with Bicycling Magazine. ... Linda DuPriest of Specialized and Tim Blumenthal of Bicycling Magazine joined IMBA's board."

    • Like Modette, I don't get why our manufacturers aren't more involved in keeping our trails open. Or if they are, why they don't publicize their efforts. I've heard of Yamaha's off-road program but thats all I know of.
    • It seems that having just one advocacy group gives IMBA clout, whereas we are splintered. I dunno what to do about it or whether we'd be better served if there were only one group.
    More from 1994:
    "IMBA signed a five-year memorandum of understanding with the U.S. Forest Service that encouraged the USFS to promote mountain biking throughout its 191-million acre system."

    In 2001:
    "An IMBA campaign helped reverse a BLM decision. After receiving more than 10,000 comment letters from mountain bikers in 30 days, they decided not to group mountain bikes with motorized vehicles in a new management plan. "This change is exactly what we want," said IMBA executive director Tim Blumenthal. "Mountain bikers spoke and the BLM listened."
    #64
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  5. cjw25

    cjw25 Been here awhile

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    Sierra Club is based in California and always has been.
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  6. MMMOTORCYCLE

    MMMOTORCYCLE Been here awhile

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  7. jjmead1

    jjmead1 now THAT"S a bike!

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    Most of the people I run into are really watching the introduction of Electric assist bikes and how IMBA will deal with them. I have personally seen them being run on the Colorado Trail and in Golden on Chimney Gulch. These are not bicycles to many of us. They are motorized use on non motorized trails. IMBA seems very close to adopting a E-bike friendly policy. This could be a breaking point in motorized use and closure. It is a battle within cycling that may have ramifications in the motorized world.

    BUT this is a topic for another thread.
    #67
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  8. dirtydoug

    dirtydoug Been here awhile

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    its not a bad idea.... when i was doing the Harley thing .. ABATE of Colorado hired Maggot Mike as a full time Lobbist ... ( you know to fight helmet laws... which we still dont have in colo)


    i find it strange that the not all the roads are being closed...
    and the roads being left open are the access roads ...
    i guess its to much to ask .. is to have them hike to the trailhead




    .
    #68
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  9. Nailhead

    Nailhead Inclusion Rider

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    For decades now, such large-scale trail usage restrictions have made little sense to me for the following reason, one that few (if any) others seem to share: as the number of trails decreases ( and the number of users increases), the usage impact on (and damage to) the remaining ones will increase to the point of irreversible damage. Do no policy makers see this? Is it even a valid consideration?

    Another potential side effect I've thought would result from such closures is that as trails are outlawed, only outlaws will use trails. The number of illegal trail users (and trespassers on private land) can't help but increase as closures do the same, especially with an ever-increasing number of trail users. Does this make sense to you all? Policy makers don't seem to think so.
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  10. Moto Beak

    Moto Beak Professional Amateur

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    That makes perfect sense to me, and surely is obvious enough. That's why the Forest Circus doesn't get it!
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  11. dmac1

    dmac1 Long timer

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    You are on the right track, but see below:

    On your first point...many people understand that. Many have argued just that point in support of not closing the trails. They become not only overused but dangerous. However, see UN Agenda 21. They ultimately don't want us there!! Sooo, the more they close, the more overused the trails become, and with too many people packed together, the more accidents and ultimately they have more justification to close them too!! Nice huh?

    On second point, yeah, we'll all be there with you, but why would a policymaker care? All they gotta do is have the BLM and FS cops come get you and haul you off. Again, see Agenda 21. They ultimately don't want us out there, and eventually there will be no open space. You shoulda seen this BLM enforcement vehicle I saw going down I-70 this spring. Was just shy of being an armored vehicle.
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  12. dmac1

    dmac1 Long timer

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    Sooo, in order to try to gain an appreciation for what all is challenged (I knew some of my usual trails were) I spent my evening pouring over Exhibit A and comparing it to the associated MVUMs. What a task! There is no way I can find all the roads and trails in one evening, but I found enough to be able to make some sense of what all is challenged. I focused mostly on the trails.

    Remember, the contents of Exhibit A are not subject to closure within 1 year, but an EA must be done within 5 years to justify them remaining open.

    Here's my findings (please correct or add to if desired):

    The challenged roads and trails run from Rampart on the NE, all the way south to Rainbow Trail on the SE and they include some roads near the top on the west side of Kenosha Pass, and it goes all the way south to near Salida where a number of roads are listed.
    • Rampart seems to mostly escaped unscathed as only some southern spur roads are impacted.
    • All trails in the 717 area are included as are a number of roads.
    • A bunch of stuff at Rainbow Falls is included.
    • Lot of trails and roads at Lake Isabel Rec area is included (are those all ATV trails over there?)
    • Some roads by Antero Junction are included as are roads by Tarryall Reservoir.
    • The entirety of Rainbow Trail is included!!! (along with some neighboring roads)
    • I didn't see that the Penrose trails are impacted
    Theres LOTS more, mostly roads. Hopefully, before we have to comment, someone more versed in the entirety of the trails and roads impacted can give us a complete picture, but hopefully this helps.

    The 6 impacted Ranger Districts are:
    Leadville, Pikes Peak, Salida, San Carlos, South Park and South Platte.

    The MVUMs are here:
    http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/psicc/maps-pubs/?cid=stelprdb5177824#mvum
    #72
  13. _CJ

    _CJ Rugged Individualist

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    Nice work. Glad to see somebody is at least trying to get a handle on this.

    It's been what? Three weeks since this came to light, and still nothing but crickets from the trail advocacy groups? Or are you speaking for them? Your signature seems to indicate some affiliation. Are they under a gag order or something? Given that COHVCO and TPA were named in the lawsuit and settlement, you'd think they'd be fairly well versed in what they agreed upon, unless they operate like congress and have to "pass the bill to see what's in it". I was asked to refrain from commenting here because "they're working on it", but three weeks later and still nothing. I've tried to share this with groups outside the OHV community, and nobody cares....yet. They'll damn sure care when the roads they use to access trails for hiking and biking are shut down, and there are definitely several on the hit list, or when these wilderness freak-o's start working on getting everyone banned.
    #73
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  14. dmac1

    dmac1 Long timer

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    Thanks! The above was my solo effort to try to get a grip on the scope of this. I knew 'my' local 717 area was heavily impacted but wasn't real sure what all else. I too thought I'd have something from our advocates by now. I used to attend CMTRA meetings but the discussion always seemed to be centered on Captain Jacks, so I stopped going...after this arose, when I contacted TPA to volunteer my help, it was suggested that I attend the next CMTRA meeting and then I was invited to attend by their President, so I will. Its next Wedn at Thunder and Buttons in Old Co Springs. Do you go to them by chance? I'm hoping additional info will be available then.

    One thing I've lamented in the past is that there is no dirt bike club in southern Denver metro (or Denver metro at all for that matter!) which could champion our cause and facilitate meeting other riders....hence why I have gone to CMTRA. I started riding dirt bikes 8 years ago, and fortunately have my son to ride with. I am slowly meeting some other riders, but a club could be good. I've considered going up to Loveland, but thats a haul from Elizabeth.

    My sig contains the names of the entities I currently support and is intended to keep the need to fight for our right to ride in mind by those who see my posts.
    #74
  15. _CJ

    _CJ Rugged Individualist

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    I don't go to the meetings, and I'm not a member. Freak'n weeknight meetings with all these groups (not picking on moto here, it's everyone). What ever happened to Saturday morning? Truth be told, I have no interest in riding single-track on a motorcycle. I've come to the conclusion that I really prefer to ride it on a mountain bike, BUT I support trail access for motorcycles and like to keep an eye on what's happening, try to help where I can, maybe spread the word on things like this to the MTB community. Would love to show up for a joint Moto/MTB trail work day. It's a shame there's not more mutual support between MTB and Moto as there's so much common ground, and so many of us who do both. To be sure, there are plenty of MTB riders who want nothing to do with "evil" moto riders, and plenty of moto riders who want nothing to do with the "evil" MTB'ers. In the meantime, the anti-access douche-bags are united and taking away HUGE chunks of land from both groups every year.

    Anyhow...it's just disappointing that nobody is talking. Seems like somebody would have wanted to get out in front of this and rally the troops. Even if anyone wanted to do anything to help at this point, there's nobody pointing them in the right direction.
    #75
  16. dmac1

    dmac1 Long timer

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    You're right, its a shame we are separate, but based on what you posted about IMBA, its not surprising. I too ride mtn bikes as does my son.

    I'm glad you're anxious to help and hope others too are eager to do their bit to save "our" trails. I too am anxious, hence why I did what I did last night. I'm sure we'll have plenty of time to comment....as I read it, the FS has 5 years. That said, things are in the works (and I happened to hear from TPA late this afternoon).
    1. This afternoon I called the FS to get paper copies of all the MVUMs. The guy at Pikes Peak district asked if I really wanted it now because it will be out of date in about a month when they issue a new one. I asked if its a result of the litigation and he said yes. The Exhibit B trails will be reflected as closed...we both think the primary impact of this will be on dispersed camping because they are all short dead-ends. None of the other districts mentioned pending issuance of new MVUMs, but I am guessing its the same in all 6.
    2. TPA advised me that they are in the process of trying to get someone to help with the entire process. I'm not sure what their role will be. The work may extend for quite a while. It is anticipated that the process will be expensive....waaay more if the whole thing ends up in court.
    3. The FS is working on an info sheet that will hopefully be out soon.
    #76
  17. modette

    modette TrailTaker.com

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    Get the maps anyways, reason they are historical in what was open. You might call say 300.G a spur to a dead end, but it's a nice little ride. Also closing spurs, closes camping opportunities. Meaning people will make new spots, and new spurs.

    Yep, pretty much that is what Don's email said the other day or two. Didn't think we were to talk about it yet as it's not a done deal. Things are in progress, it takes time. I think everyone understands people want to know what is going on. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it's not being dealt with.

    But yes, it will cost a lot to do the studies...so we need to work on raising funds. Some ideas are being floated that is all I will say.
    #77
  18. Dan-M

    Dan-M Long timer Supporter

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    I'm late the the thread here but a small lever we may have is there are several companies listed at the bottom of the above link that sell their products to us via motorcycle specific retailers. JetBoil, Nikwax, Camelbak are all sold through gear companies like Aerostich and others. They should be made aware that selling those company's products ultimately works against us and in turn them.

    Probably not of much consequence in the big picture but as I see it there is no reason to support those manufacturers.
    #78
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  19. jjmead1

    jjmead1 now THAT"S a bike!

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    I emailed a link to COHVCO asking someone to join in and maybe shed some light as to what they were doing about this.
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  20. modette

    modette TrailTaker.com

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