Rally-Raid Products Honda CB500X

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by ktmmitch, Sep 22, 2014.

  1. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    Hi Mikledog!

    As you are probably aware, the stock silencer sits pretty close to the lower edge of the swingarm - so if we are to raise the rear suspension more than about an inch, we will need to address the clearance there.

    Initially, we are looking to replace the stock exhaust with two options - one will be just a smaller, lighter end can, that also eliminates the conical section in the stock link pipe that currently is close to the swing arm. The other option that can be used in conjunction with the stock/aftermarket or our own end can, would be a new header pipe assembly that also eliminates the Cat for those who desire to save further weight and reduce heat etc.

    However, to ensure compatibility with the OEM and any other aftermarket end cans owners my have already purchased, we do not envisage raising this 'stage 1' exhaust much from the OEM position, as we would want it to locate on the existing mountings, and retain the pillion peg provision etc. - mainly because we feel that for the vast majority of owners, and the intended use of this bike, keeping the silencer/can just below where any luggage racks or pannier cases would sit actually helps to keep the bike nice and narrow.

    As you can probably appreciate, having a high pipe would of course compromise certain luggage options - although it is feasible that once our own luggage racks have been finalised, that it would be possible to run a silencer up and inside those - it is something KTMmitch will certainly be looking at once the prep on the Dakar [LC4-50] bike has been finished later this month.

    In addition, as part of the ongoing development for any 18/21" wheel and suspension 'extreme' conversion akin to the Thai rally bikes, then we would certainly look at raising the silencer to at least a mid-high position like on those race bikes, as we wouldn't expect luggage and/or a pillion to take a priority for those owners - certainly in the future I can see a mid-high pipe in combination with a Giant Loop Coyote style bag over the rear seat as a more 'hard-core' adventurer option?

    Jx
    motocopter likes this.
  2. mikledog

    mikledog Adventurer

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    Thanks for the prompt reply, have got a chance of getting a scorpion pipe for a decent price tomorrow. I am following thread about suspension upgrade with interest as i'm finding the rear a bit harsh after my 26yr old Honda Dominator.
  3. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    No problem - Check the diameter of the Scorpion pipe where it sits next to the swing arm - the stock pipe has a conical section that tapers from the diameter of the silencer down to the size of the header pipe, and it's this part that is a bit close to the swing arm.

    It is quite possible that the Scorpion can just uses a regular diameter pipe (around 50mm) from the end of the header all the way into the silencer, offering valuable extra space around the swing arm.

    At this stage, we envisage a +1 inch rear shock will still allow clearance on the standard OEM silencer (based on observing the stock shock on full extension when the bike is on the centre stand), but that should you wish to go to a +2" shock and corresponding longer travel front end, it is possible you would need to replace* the stock silencer... if however your aftermarket can has a narrower link pipe section already, you ought to be fine.

    *Of course it's quite possible that all that is really needed to retain the stock silencer with a +2" travel shock would be a small 'dent' in the conical link pipe section, but we couldn't officially recommend just hitting it with a lump hammer of course ;o)

    Jx
  4. Magile

    Magile Been here awhile Supporter

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    BINGO! :clap
  5. Maxacceleration

    Maxacceleration Off the grid

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    Are you taking advance orders for the 17/19" wheelset, fork kit, rear shock and high fender mount?
    I'd like to get in on the first go around. :deal
    Cheers
  6. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    Hi Max' - we are still in the process of finalising the spec (and 'Mitch is currently in the final stages of preparing their Dakar bike prior to shipping on the 20th of this month, as I mention above), so at this stage pre-orders are a little premature...

    However, if you have not already done so, I do suggest you (and anyone else) drop an email to Rally Raid Products through their website and register your interest in the CB500X Adventure (and which items particularly) - as that will certainly help with our initial production schedule, and of course you'll be updated as soon as the parts become available for sale.

    Jx
  7. Scott4769

    Scott4769 Adventurer

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    Thanks Jx, makes sense to me.

  8. Scott4769

    Scott4769 Adventurer

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    I'm definitely interested, and will register my interest on the Rally Raid Products website. Is there some ballpark pricing though? Because that will directly influence my "interest" :wink:

  9. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    Hi Scott - to clarify my previous post re the speedo - I know you got it, but I've edited it to make it more clear... effectively a smaller rear wheel will spin faster for a given distance, causing the speedo to OVER read by typically 5-10% - this way you should never actaully be going faster than the speedo says you are.

    The larger diameter tyre will effectively slow down that reading for the same given distance on the ground, bringing the speedo display closer to what it actually should be.

    The bottom line as I explained before though, is that using a 17" rear wheel, even if the tread/sidewall is slightly deeper, should not effect the speedo unduly - other than to make it actually more accurate, as you surmised.

    Regarding pricing - I gave an indication back in post #21 in this thread (page 2 I believe).

    At this stage, we do not envisage much change from those estimates - we would certainly hope the spoked 17 & 19" wheel-set will retail at around £600-650 GBP (so around $1000 USD) - it really depends on the final production costs of the rear hub, which being a custom design unique to RRP, means it is produced in smaller batches than Talon hold in off-the-shelf stock.

    Similarly, we intend to offer a higher quality (and adjustable) shock than standard, but this will not be a full-on race/rally style shock which has a correspondingly higher price.

    Depending on the eventual supplier, a good-quality 'adventure' spec shock with adjustable damping (and a remote preload option) ought to be available for around £500 once the final size and features are decided. Currently the Tractive hydraulic remote preload adjuster costs +£180 on top of their regular shock price, but as I say, we are looking at other options in an effort to keep the cost of the kit affordable.

    Jx
  10. Scott4769

    Scott4769 Adventurer

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    Excellent thanks Jenny, I appreciate the clarification on both the speedo and pricing.

    Honestly, I'm REALLY excited by the prospect of spoked rims, better travel suspension etc, I think it will make, as others have said, the CB500X a formidable ADV touring machine.

    I just came back from test riding an F650 GS. I'd read that a single cylinder bike vibrated, but I didnt realise how badly! I don't think I could stand a long trip on the single-cyliner bike. Admittedly, the vibration isn't too noticeable over 60kmh (approx 38mph) but when I jumped back on my Honda and road away, it felt like i was riding on velvet by comparison lol.
  11. EddyB

    EddyB Been here awhile

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    To Rally Raid people:
    There is a company (I am not sure about mentioning it here, you can google it out) from Italy offering cartridge inserts including preload, rebound and compression adjustment for CBR500R European cup bikes. That cartridge is really competitively priced. So maybe you can use it with some small modifications or even get company to make cartridge inserts with a slightly longer travel and valving appropriate for X bike.
    Thought that would help with product development and speed up development time for you...

    Btw, I tried to contact company and ask if their CBR500R cartridges will drop into F or X bikes and they said no. But answer was from sales department... Wonder what mechanical department guys would answer.
  12. eakins

    eakins Butler Maps

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    these guys?
    http://ftrsuspension.co.uk/product-category/cartridge-kits-road/
    just read how the kit transforms the front end of a R model then just add a whole new shock out back.

    i'm interested as my wife is interested in a true ADV 500X model down the road.
  13. EddyB

    EddyB Been here awhile

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    Yes. That is what I have in mind. These cartridges go on a bike together with 1000 dollars ohlins shock so they should be great (racers want suspension balanced, not lacking in a front while having best shock in a back).
    I am waiting who is gonna be first to put these on CB500X and review them. Somehow I think that even stock these cartridges would work great on X both onroad and on gravel roads. Would lower front end by 3/4 inch which might by a good thing onroad without a negativity on gravel roads. Funny how Honda got away by leaving the same shock on all 500 series and just increased travel on front slightly just so they can put a beak up front :D
  14. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    Hi Guys - thanks for the links... Eddy - please do let me know which specific parts (for the CB500R) you are referring to, as most of the Ohlins stuff is pretty expensive?

    Certainly based on our own research, while the CB-R and CB-F fork internals ought to be interchangeable, the CB-X will certainly require longer damper rods (and moreso with our +30mm travel kit) than is currently commercially available.

    The UK suspension company we are in discussion with are already developing their own cartridge kit (for the R, and presumably F bikes), and it is likely that this will form the basis of any 'fully adjustable' fork kit we offer for the CB-X too - but these will require our own custom length damper rods etc.

    Coming from a race and rally background ourselves, we obviously appreciate the benefits of having [the option of] fully adjustable suspension - however, at the same time, we also feel that in reality for a large number of adventure riders, once they have the bike set up properly for them (the correct oil weight and air gap etc.) that the need for external adjusters is greatly diminished - and we a confident that simply adding the new [longer/more progressive] spring kit and +30mm ride hight rod and spacer parts will offer a significant improvement over stock, while remaining a useful budget option.

    Ultimately, I'm sure a higher-end (fully adjustable) front and rear suspension package will also be available, but potential owners need to understand that will inevitably come at a much higher overall cost.

    Jx
  15. EddyB

    EddyB Been here awhile

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    Talking about fork cartridges I meant ones by Andreani: http://www.andreanigroup.com/en-us/...65&idC_L=61819&LN=en-US&Page=902&Reparto=auto
    There are also others by K-tech (uk company) for sale on US webpage: http://www.orientexpress.com/p-20313-k-tech-suspension-20mm-ids-fork-cartridges.aspx They say it will fit all 3 CB's.

    I can understand that adjustable suspension only makes sense on a race bike. But non adjustable Cartridges might interest a few guys. Dropping external adjustability would drop a cost while cartridges would still perform wonderfully after valving. If there are enough people wanting to bring this bike offroad, there should be some who want non adjustable cartridges.
  16. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    We're on the same page Eddy ;o)

    As I mention above, for these to work with the +30mm travel kit, they will require longer damping rods and springs, and this is something we are working on to offer a quality and realistically priced full-adjustable option.

    Whether we can also get satisfactory [improved] performance without changing the cartridges themselves as a budget option remains to be seen.

    Jx
  17. Maxacceleration

    Maxacceleration Off the grid

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    Hello JMo or Mitch,
    I am curious of the weight difference going from the stock mag wheelset to the 17/19" spoked wheelset.
    Are the larger dimeter 17/19 wheels much heavier if at all? Have you weighed?
    All thats on my mind is light weight!
    TIA
  18. JMo (& piglet)

    JMo (& piglet) Unicorn breeder

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    Hi Max' - I think someone might have asked this before, and 'Mitch replied we haven't been able to weigh the [production] spoked wheels yet, but when we get them back from Talon (the anodised production hubs are being laced to the production size/spec rims as we speak) - we'll let you know...

    Personally I wouldn't get too hung up about it - they are likely to be similar, and at the end of the day, even if the spoked wheels were a little heavier, they will be far more dent/damage resistant, which is the main thing?

    Whatever you/we do, you are not going to be able to dramatically lose much weight from the CB500X - which is kind of why we started with one of the lightest twin-cylinder bikes in the first place...

    To illustrate: If you read back to post #45, I explain what I did with my XT660Z Tenere a few years ago... the fundamental problem is similar, in that both bikes have full length steel frame, large engine, and large OEM fuel tank (plus to a lesser extent, big seat and fairing) which all add up to the majority of the weight.

    Sure you can swap out the stock exhaust for something lighter (and we will), and remove bar-end weights, pillion footrests (not so heavy on the CB-X anyway), the crappy belly cowl, and maybe chop the tail/licence-plate hanger (not that that is as bulky as the XT version was) and you'll certainly save a few Kgs...

    But you have to remember that even high-end wheels, shocks and forks all weigh pretty much the same - just fundamentally they are stronger and offer better performance, rather than any substantial weight saving.

    Yes if you go magnesium and titanium etc. you might save a few grammes, but that is it really - and of course you'd be dramatically increasing cost, disproportionally I might add.

    Furthermore, while that might be considered worthwhile when road racing for example, at this [off road] specification and price point, exotic materials wouldn't have the same benefits, and indeed could actually be a liability where strength and longevity are required?

    Rest assured we will do what we can to minimise any weight gain - and indeed our goal (with a replacement exhaust) would be basically to offer the Adventure specification bike at the pretty much the same weight (or a little less) than the stock machine.

    Jx
  19. Maxacceleration

    Maxacceleration Off the grid

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    I follow you JMo. I've read the whole thread once, but not twice lol.
    Yup pipe & tail tidy looks to be it.
    I know tires themselves vary a bit in weight too, but Karoo 3's may be my choice.
    I will probably do a Giant Loop type of luggage plus a real skidplate, but probably not much else. Maybe a seat concepts seat.
    I'm itchin' to put a down on a '15!
    Thanks. :thumb
  20. Chris S

    Chris S Been here awhile

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    Seeing as a Tenerised MT (FZ) 07 may be a while away - and if it happens, not necessarily fully purposeful out-of-the crate, I am thinking a CB-X will be my next project bike. Just a shame it's not a characterful 270-degree motor. So it's great to read RRP taking an interest in adventurising this bike which I've always considered a contender as an all-road travel bike. Sounds like the planned adaptions and 'if-it ain't'-broke' ethos are right on track.

    I haven't had a close look at the OE wheels but I was wondering about the need to replace the 17-inch rear alloy with a spoke job in the same size?
    I see your reasoning about repairability, but I must say that in all my years it is spoke wheels (maybe not all Talon/Excel quality) that have given more problems than mags. If you manage to wreck an alloy wheel chances are the rest of the bike (or the rider) won't be in great shape either.

    A larger diameter front is much less questionable of course and I can see most riders will prefer the symmetry of a fully spoked wheel set. Plus the hardcore option of going 18/21 as mentioned. Me, I'd retain the tubeless puncture repairability of the OE rear wheel unless I am missing something? Should the thing get badly dinged just whack a tube in.

    A couple of years back I ran a borrowed F650GS SE (predecessor to F700 cited earlier in this thread) for 4000 miles in Morocco. Great machine but currently still costly, heavy and longer than a CB-X. The 19/17 mag wheels (with K60s) didn't give me any concerns as I tend to run as high pressures as necessary to avoid flats, plus reduce speeds and let the knobs do the work when needed.

    Do we presume the side stand and optional centre stand will need lengthening? Had this issue before on raised/bigger wheel bikes. Might be worth offering a longer RRP side stand with a chunky welded-on XL foot. One that can take the weight of the bike perched on it when doing the chain or wheel changes (assuming the s/s chassis mounting is up to this).

    Great news about the fork. I'm in Marrakech between tours, running an XCo on Hyperpro progressives and I'm now a convert to expensive suspension! Don't really appreciate it on the road but on a gnarly piste it makes all the difference - quite amazing. I agree with what you say JMo about the fact that once the forks are dialled in, for overlanding use they get left that way. It's the preload on the back that is most useful in the real world - and turning a fat knob is much easier than messing around with C-spanners.

    Looking forward to the developments. Thanks for considering the CB-X ;-)

    Ch