Rant and Build: NOTMYBIKE... builds a super light F650-R

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by notmybikemodelname, Jun 22, 2010.

  1. tmotten

    tmotten Lefthand ride Dutchy

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    Cheers. Looking at ways to keep the costs down and am trying to get my head around the shrinkage issue. I understand that the side closest to the mold cures last and it separates from the mold/plug slightly. Is it true that this is more the case laying up inside a plug and less so over a plug?
  2. notmybikemodelname

    notmybikemodelname KOTW is a myth!

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    That's a good story, have another one?
    The shrinkage on epoxy is negligible and not to worry about.
  3. tmotten

    tmotten Lefthand ride Dutchy

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    It's also dearer than gold and hookers. In that order. :D

    If I'd lay over the plugs with polyester would I enter a nightmare? And what would the story line be?
  4. notmybikemodelname

    notmybikemodelname KOTW is a myth!

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    That's a good story, have another one?
    Story Line: "Taco's shrinkage is greater than swimming in ice cold water."

    9-13% shrinkage on polyester depending on temp and humidity, and your catalyzation rate.

    Less than 1-2% with Epoxy.
  5. tmotten

    tmotten Lefthand ride Dutchy

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    Maybe I'm using to much resin. For that area in that picture I used 900ml. The weave (9oz) was initially a 900x500mm piece but I had to cut pieces of for the curves. The matt (450gr) was the same size cut in squares. So together laminate would take 2l/sq.m.

    Is that too much? I'm finding it hard to tell if I've saturated the glass enough.
  6. notmybikemodelname

    notmybikemodelname KOTW is a myth!

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    That's a good story, have another one?
    Boy did I just get some real perty hybrid material in todays delivery.:D

    5 yds of Blue and Black carbon/kevalr hybrid 5.5 oz 2x2 twill to finish up and get me down the home stretch.
  7. tmotten

    tmotten Lefthand ride Dutchy

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    Looky???

    Only just realised what those rubber squeegees are all about. I reckon I used way to much resin. But than again, my matt chop strands aren't completely covered in resin after I roll it. What I was shown in the shop had a good amount (1mm) of cured resin on top of the fibres and I couldn't really feel any strands. Not so on mine. So I must be doing heaps wrong. Any tips?

    Anyway, I went to get some resin yesterday and found I've been using waxed poly resin. Got rid of that and got unwaxed along with a barrage of information about the different resins, which fabric's they're compatible with and what is typically used where. Along with all the varying jargon and terminology of which there seems to be a lot of variances.

    Anyhow, I just discovered that mat (chop strand) isn't compatible with epoxy resins. so I'm guessing by suggesting a layer of 7-10 s-glass you're talking about woven?
    Although here you're talking about matt?? :dunno
    Either way. I found out the other day that all the woven glass I can get in the shop is all roving. Which apparently is what woven glass is. The other being cloth which is a weave of glass yarn.

    So with a 2.3-3mm carbon/kevlar 2x2 twill and epoxy resin, what type and weight (oz/m2) of glass should I stick with? Would a 6oz/m2 woven roving do? I'll have to work out how to use that squeege off course. Cause after a while with poly resin the roller sticks lifting some fibres up.
  8. notmybikemodelname

    notmybikemodelname KOTW is a myth!

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    That's a good story, have another one?
    Doing hand lay only, you are doing very good if you can achieve a 50/50% ratio by weight of resin to material. Ideal is 40/60 resin to material by weight and can only be achieved by prepreg, v-bagging, autoclave, or Scrimp. You don't want so much resin that you can't feel the fiber. That's way to much and the more resin you have the more brittle it is. Typically when I use mat, which is almost never:puke1, I only add resin to the mat and the exces resin is soaked up by the cloth when you squeegee it down and into place. You can still use a brush in the corners, but don't use any more resin.
  9. Gravel Seeker

    Gravel Seeker Old, growing older.

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    I don't understand a fraction of what you're all talking about, but it's fascinating as hell :thumb
  10. mattomoto

    mattomoto 2 wheels rule

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    Me three :lol3 I'm more a picture guy... Got any Rob? (of the bike that is...)
  11. tmotten

    tmotten Lefthand ride Dutchy

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    You're not kidding. I thought I was getting the hang off it until I discovered the chemical facts about all this.

    How does the 50/50% work practically? Do you cut the fabric to the rough shape, weigh it and match the weight in resin?

    The industry here is pretty much all boating, and as I found out earlier, they're not as advanced in techniques it seems. So I'm going to have to check in with you to verify the bullshit I'm spun sometimes. The guys in the shop mean well, but never heard of that squeegee technique for example and were suggesting it would pull the fibres. I'm getting to the business end now which means I'll have to commit fair amounts of funds now. Which is why I was asking about the compatibility and terminology of all the weaves and materials. Just to get it right.

    What do you reckon I could get away with for the glass layers in the part laminate. Would 9oz/m2 plain weave roving with wedges between the 5.4oz carbon/kevlar epoxy resin work or be sufficient? Still with an overall thickness of 2.5/3mm.

    For the mould I've been suggested this tooling resin which apparently is compatible with the chop strand. But they reckon for a 1 square metre I'd need at least 10l. This resin apparently hasn't got the shrinkage of the poly resin. Roughly same price as epoxy though. Must be some modified epoxy or vinilester resin to allow for it to be used with mat. Not that bothers about the mould but building up layers with chop strand would keep the cost down plus it's easier to work with I reckon. Crap stuff though.
  12. notmybikemodelname

    notmybikemodelname KOTW is a myth!

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    Alright. So I just figured out that your questions were in regards to a mold before. With a mold, you will use alternating layers of mat and cloth. Your last layer can be an 18oz roving, but not necessary. Puddling of resin is fine on tooling but remember the more resin the more shrinkage.

    As for the part, DON"T use any mat or roving. Do alternating layers of Carbon/Kevlar and glass. Two layers of each if you're using 5.5 oz 2x2 twill and 7-9oz plain weave glass is more than enough to get 2.5m thickness. Only use a bbrush to apply the resin, then squeegee away any excess resin to leave what would appear to be dry cloth with a slight sheen. However it should only appear that way and be fully saturated. I'll post a picture later
  13. tmotten

    tmotten Lefthand ride Dutchy

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    :clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:freaky

    Shit, I'm down a fair few beers to ya now. :1drink

    Those are exactly the holes in my thoughts. Should have been clearer on what I was talking about building. I'll be ordering the parts fabric in NYC from fibreglast so it looks like I may have to order some glass cloth as well than. It's not that common here, but I'll ring around anyway. May be some specialty shops around.

    FGI actually have a tooling resin datasheet on their website talking about next to no shrinkage, so I'll just use mat chop strand and the roving weave that I already have on the mould to make it simple.

    This bloke below shows some good ideas on how to actually go about the mould making. Now it's just a case of doing it. Slipped the cost in a conversation to the Mrs and sadly it didn't go unnoticed. Ah well. To far into it now. :evil

    I'll precut a cotton sheet to get an idea of the size and hopefully the offcuts may be enough to use for the headlight bracket.

    Is the weighing of the fabric to get an idea on the amount of resin a workable method though?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzng9HeGNPE
  14. notmybikemodelname

    notmybikemodelname KOTW is a myth!

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    That's a good story, have another one?
    This is what the finished part laminate should like like.

    [​IMG]
  15. tmotten

    tmotten Lefthand ride Dutchy

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    Cool. I can see the boaties using heaps more resin. That looks heaps good. What they showed me had like a 1mm+ layer of resin over the top where as yours seems to still has the profile of the fibres. They were trying to talk me into 10l of tooling resin for the mould and I think similar for the epoxy for the part. But then I realised that it's sold by the kg which would make the part heavy as.

    Sorry, I edited my post after you posted the picture, but is the weighing of the fabric to get an idea on the amount of resin a workable method? Just to keep the amount applied under control. That way I'm guessing that the amount in the mixing pot is all I'm putting on and need to make sure the squeegee spreads it around evenly.
  16. notmybikemodelname

    notmybikemodelname KOTW is a myth!

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    That's a good story, have another one?
    Ten liters?:eek1 That's nearly 20lbs of resin. Your fairing should weigh no more than 3-4lbs when done.

    Weighing of both is a good idea. But since you're new at this, you might have to mix a little more than needed and then squeegee away the excess.

    DON"T buy from Fiberglast right now. Go to US Composites instead. More colors of hybrid and cheaper for 1st quality material than Fiberglast charges for off spec stuff
  17. tmotten

    tmotten Lefthand ride Dutchy

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    Spot on. I'm impressed.

    [​IMG]


    I'm a bit of a spreadsheet geek. :shog
  18. Gravel Seeker

    Gravel Seeker Old, growing older.

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    At which point do you take your mold and or plug to a professional ? Say, if you fuck up the first try, do the materials with another attempt total up to more than if a pro did it once.... ? Surely I'd leave the more expensive and difficult bits to others :evil
  19. DRjoe

    DRjoe Long timer

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    And where would the fun in that be?

    If he wasn't playing with composites then he'd be out riding so its safer for everyone that he stays playing with composites :lol3
  20. notmybikemodelname

    notmybikemodelname KOTW is a myth!

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    That's a good story, have another one?
    No. To have someone do the tooling and make the first part would cost about 6k. I would do it for 10 :D