Route recalculation on 60Cx/CSx ?

Discussion in 'Mapping & Navigation' started by tbirdsp, Nov 17, 2008.

  1. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp REMF

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    OK, my experience with my 60Cx is that if you let the unit off-route recalculate a route which you have uploaded from Mapsource it will disregard all of your via points and route you to your destination. That's why it's so important to have auto recalc off.
    Someone on the 60Cx/CSx Yahoo group is telling me that it will route you back to your intended route at the nearest point. He has a Zumo too which probably operates differently than the 60Cx.

    What say you 60 gurus? :ear
    #1
  2. Brent4ADV

    Brent4ADV Enjoying empty roads...

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    Once it recalculates it will use your routing preferences to get you to your next waypoint (disregarding all viapoints in between), at least from my experience.
    #2
  3. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp REMF

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    I create all of my routes in Mapsource using the route tool, which makes via points. I rarely (if ever) insert an actual waypoint in a route except the start and the end.
    #3
  4. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    An advantage of adding Waypoints is your GPS will give you arival time to each waypoint and after you download lots of these waypints you can gust use use find and goto to get to one.
    #4
  5. Brent4ADV

    Brent4ADV Enjoying empty roads...

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    If you're worried about recalculation then you should just use tracks instead of routes. If you already know what your route should be then make tracks. The 60 does really well with tracks (can display multiple tracks at once) and you don't have to worry about recalcs.
    #5
  6. 9Dave

    9Dave Bazinga!

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    Brent - I hate starting posts with "no offense", but please don't take offense when I tell you that "Trust me, Tbird fully understands the difference between tracks and routes and the advantages of each". He's a long time contributor in this forum and is asking a technical question to see what others' experience with their 60cx was on a routing issue.

    I'll have to play with this some when I have time. Waypoints vs. via points has always produced interesting results when routing.

    Dave
    #6
  7. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp REMF

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    I've been using the 60Cx for over 2 years now. I long ago figured out a routing method that works *for me*. It includes leaving the auto recalulate off. I usually plan my routes out in detail at home before a trip, using the route tool in Mapsource to direct the route to the specific roads I want to ride (by creating via points). Normally the only actual waypoints in my routes are the start and end. I try to avoid stopping navigation of my route (like by doing a "find" for food, gas, etc). If I do go off my route I just use the map screen to get back to it (find the magenta line) rather than do a recalc.
    My initial experiences with the auto recalc told me that it would recalc my route entirely, directing me to my destination without regard for my via points. Since then I hardly ever have auto-recalc on. I usually only recalc a route if I'm just going straight to my home or other waypoint as fast as possible.
    This issue actually came up in a dicussion (on the Yahoo group) about whether you could start a route in the middle. The original poster was traveling a route which he had planned in Mapsource. He then stopped navigation to find a restaurant for lunch. When he finished lunch and wanted to get back to his route he selected it and hit "navigate". As normal with the 60's, it tried to take him back to the route start. However, he said as he started traveling along what he knew to be his intended route the GPS never "found itself" and continued on it. He had auto-recalc on so the GPS constantly would recalc and try to take him back to the start point. When I have done this same thing but with auto recalc OFF, even though it initially tries to take me back to the start the GPS will soon find itself and navigate me along my route fine. I just did this again Sunday. I had a route planned but the initial meeting place was changed to a point about 5 miles north of the route. I left the route unchanged, but I started it at the new off-route point. This should be the same as if I had originally traveled the route but went off of it 5 miles and stopped navigation and then restarted the route. It
    initially tried to take me back to the route start point (my house) but as I got close to the route it updated itself. I could tell because the miles to destination suddenly went from 140 to 118. It actually seemed that the unit updated before I even got to my route. I was able to navigate the rest of my route exactly as planned.
    I'm not sure if the original poster created his route using waypoints or via points (or a combination). He also has a Zumo. He said that with the Zumo if you try to start a route in the middle it prompts you and asks whether you want to do it from the start or not (which is a great feature).
    As 9Dave said, I think the best way to check this our will be to make an experimental route with a combination of waypoints and via points and then purposedly make it recalc and see what it does.
    Brent4ADV may very well be correct.

    Still interested in other user's experience with 60Cx route recalculation:ear
    #7
  8. mcnut

    mcnut Long timer

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    Be interested to see what the out come of this thread is.

    I had to set my 60CSx routing preferences to prompt me for "Follow Road or Off-Road", "Faster or Shorter" and prompt before "Off Route Recalculation". But I still wasn't happy until I checked the "Avoid U-Turn" box.

    I know this isn't quit what you are getting at but may help others who are just getting into this routing stuff and are frustrated.

    Bruce
    #8
  9. Brent4ADV

    Brent4ADV Enjoying empty roads...

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    Well, from my experience with my 60csx, it does pretty much what you say. If I stop in the middle of a route, the only way to get it back on the route is to stop navigation and then reload the route and it will then take into account my via points and lead me the way I had planned. If, however, I recalculate then it will take me to my next waypoint.
    So, I guess what would be an interesting test is to create two identical routes. The first one should be made using only two waypoints (one at the start and one at the end) with viapoints filling the rest of the route. Then make another route using only waypoints. Ride both routes and let the unit recalculate in the middle of the route to see how it behaves. I guess you could also make another route that has three waypoints (with the third being somewhere in the middle of the route) and see how the unit handles that one as well.
    #9
  10. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp REMF

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    I had already planned on trying excactly that today:D . I replaced one of the via points in the route I mentioned above with a defined waypoint. Gonna experiment by going off-route with recalc on and off, also stopping and restarting in the middle. I'll report what I find.

    Need to put a few miles on the KLR and we are going to have a freakishly warm (for Nov in Nebraska) day of 55 degs:clap
    #10
  11. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp REMF

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    Auto recalculate:

    I started navigating my route with auto-recalc turned on. I then purposely went off route. At first it was just telling me to do what amounted to a U-turn. As I progessed further it was apparent that the 60Cx was directing me *back to the point where I left my pre-programmed route* rather than straight to my destination as I had thought previously. My chosen deviation kind of paralleled my programmed route about 3 miles to the west. Regardless of how close I was to the programmed route the GPS kept trying to take me back to the point I left the route. It was telling me to do some rather complex gyrations when I could have just gone a few miles west and intersected my route. At one point I was about 3 miles from the waypoint I had inserted in the route but the unit was still trying to take me back to where I left the route which was 7 miles away. It didn't appear that it made any difference if the route points were waypoints or via points.
    I then turned towards my original route. The unit was trying to take me back to where I left the route right up until I hit the point where I actually intersected the route. It then finally updated and had me continue on the route as planned.
    (note: I had a via point placed just ahead of where I deviated from the route. It's possible that the unit was directing me to the nearest via point to where I left the route rather than the actual spot. I couldn't tell though. I'm not sure if the off-route recalc would do the same on a route that just had start and end points without any intermediate via points.)

    Starting route from the middle:

    Now that I was back on track (so to speak) I tried another experiment. I hit "Find" and looked for the nearest gas station. I found one that was slightly off of my route and hit "go to" (which stopped navigation of my original route). After I arrived there I highlighted my original route and hit "navigate". As I suspected, the unit was directing me back to the route start point before sending me on my route. I then headed the opposite direction it was telling me to go but on a path that would intersect the route further on. The unit tried to direct me to the route start point many miles away until I intersected the route, then it did update and once again had me continue my route as planned.

    Conclusions:
    It appears that if you are navigating a route you loaded from Mapsource and have auto-recalculate turned on the unit will try to take you back to the point where you left your route (or possibly the nearest via point to that point). It's not "smart" enough to realize that it may make more sense to intersect the route at a point further on.

    If you try to restart a route from the middle the unit will try to direct you back to the route start point first but if you intersect your route at a poiont further on it should "find itself" and update, reagrdless of wheteher auto-recalc is on or off.

    Personally, I am still going to leave auto-recalc off and try to avoid stopping navigation if I am traveling a specific route I loaded form Mapsource. If I do have to go off route (with auto recalc off) it's a smple matter to just use the map screen to find my way back to the magenta line that is my route.

    It still would be good if someone else could try their own experiment and post the results:ear :D
    #11
  12. JimC

    JimC Long timer

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    Nice work Mike,

    It just confirms for me why I almost exclusively use tracks when I want to follow a predetermined route. I can wander all around, explore side roads and not have to deal with requests from my GPS.

    The only time I use routing is when I really don't care how I get to a destination, if I get off route I just recalculate and follow the GPS, Just like you did when you looked for a gas station.

    Jim in Sacramento
    #12
  13. markjenn

    markjenn Long timer

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    I've not done an specific experiments with my 60Cx, but here's my experience over a lot of trips:

    1) I don't think it matters whether a route is auto-recalc'ed for manually recalc'ed. In either event, at recalc it will....

    2) Attempt to route to the via point that is the shortest distance from your current position. This may or may not lead you back to where you left the route.

    3) Once you intercept the route, which can be at a via point or simply somewhere arbitrary between, it will resume normal route navigation.

    I don't think waypoints vs. via points is significant.

    Auto-recalc is too unreliable in my opinion to be of much use except when you simply are doing a Find > Navigate To without any intermediate via points. I have it prompt me for recalc and I seldom tell it to.

    - Mark
    #13
  14. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp REMF

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    1) Agreed

    2) Kinda - Do you mean that it will route you to the nearest via point *to the place you left the route*? Because as I moved along after I deviated from my route I was positively closer to other via points further along the route yet it still tried to route me back to the one closest to where I left the route.

    3) Agreed

    Also agree with your last two points. I don't even bother to have it prompt me to recalc, I just shut it off. If I really want to I can still do it manually.

    JimC - I don't know, I still use routes a lot if none of my route is off road. It's nice to have the directions and ETA/distance to destination info. I've gotten pretty good at getting both Mapsource and the 60Cx to do what I want with routes.
    If you have the silly auto-recalc turned off, you can go off of your route just like you would go off of a track to do some side exploring. You can then navigate back to your original route simply by finding it on the map screen the same way you would if you got off of your track.
    #14
  15. markjenn

    markjenn Long timer

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    Not my experience, but you may be right. You really would need to develop some test routes with different geometries to know what the algorithm is doing. And it may not be consistent - there are some computational tradeoffs that have to be made in routing problems that can lead to odd results.

    And I agree with you - while this route recalc behavior is odd at times, to stop using routes all-together and revert to just using tracks seems overboard.

    - Mark
    #15
  16. tbirdsp

    tbirdsp REMF

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    Not worth the effort to check it out further IMHO. I think we have proven that the recalculation is too inconsistent to be useful, at least while navigating routes you have carefully pre-planned in Mapsource to follow specific roads.
    I guess it will help get you to Starbuck's as fast as possible though:D

    Here's an "odd result" I forgot to mention - As I was playing around today at one point I activated my route. As usual it tried to direct me back to the route start. I ignored all directions and kinda took a diagonal path back to my house (end point of the route) which I knew would intersect the tail end (about the last 10 miles) of my route. Of course the whole time the auto recalc was trying to get me back to the route start and then progress with the rest of the route. I eventually noticed that the route it was creating to the start point overlapped the last section of the programmed route. I figured when I actually got to that point the unit would finally update and just lead me on the last part of the route. I was surprised that it did not update!
    After a few miles I decided to pull over and turn auto-recalc off to see if it made a difference. I ended up having to get further off the road to do this than I intended. I looked down and saw that by going off-route I had made it update! The miles to destination went from like 140 (back to start and then the rest of the route) to 11 (remaining section of original route).

    The routing quirks of the 60Cx really don't bother me. Even Garmin will tell you it is not intended to primarily be a street routing unit but a handheld for hiking, etc. It's strengths far outweigh it's weaknesses IMHO.

    I'm going to add a link to my old 2006 thread about the way the 60's do routing just in case some may have missed it.
    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139836
    #16
  17. 9Dave

    9Dave Bazinga!

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    Interesting results, Mike. Thanks for sharing.

    Have to play with routing on the 60csx when the weather is warmer. My 376 does strange enough stuff. After a while, you learn what it's doing and compensate and quit fighting it.

    Dave
    #17
  18. Mike_G

    Mike_G Exasperated

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    I appreciate you guys looking into this so well & sharing your findings. There is a lot of good info here and I think it's going to simplify my own routing in the future.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    #18
  19. aciurczak

    aciurczak Been here awhile

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    I opened the can of worms on the yahoo group. It all makes sense here and in the discussion on that group. But, the behavior of my unit during that route still can't be explained other than an anomaly. Or there's something else going on that I haven't figured out yet (or even thought to share so someone else could figure it out).

    By Mike's results above, auto-recalc or not, when I got back to my known route, the unit should have found itself, and from that point forward used the last half of the route. It never found itself, and repeatedly tried to take me back to the start of the route before continuing on. For some reason, it never realized it was back on the main route. I was on the route long enough (at least 10 miles, and likely 20), that I'm almost positive I had gone over at least one waypoint on the route, and maybe more than one. But I guess there's an outside chance that I hadn't actually hit the next waypoint, and if I had at that point it would have re-routed correctly using only the rest of the planned route.
    #19
  20. markjenn

    markjenn Long timer

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    Just shooting in the dark, but do you run with "lock on road" turned off? Perhaps that setting might affect how quickly it is able to determine you are back on a route. I typically leave this on.

    - Mark
    #20